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[TNW] Western Digital disks most likely to fail - Page 17

post #161 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald View Post

You have no clue what you are talking about. Again, with the level of encryption Backblaze (along with other good paid cloud backup services) uses, it's pretty much impossible they will get hacked and lose everyone's data. The only way an individual would lose their data to hacking is if they are stupid enough to use an insecure password.


How can you sit there and say he doesn't know what he is talking about, but then proceed to comment on what you don't understand or know about yourself? It is absolutely ludicrous to say that they can't be hacked, or are otherwise somehow immune to a breach. Especially in light that most breaches are accomplished via exploiting human error, especially where behavior is concerned. There exists no hack proof system/platform.

Are there platforms harder to compromise than others? Sure. However, stating Blackblaze is somehow in the realm of "pretty much impossible" is disingenuous. Hell, their willingness to be cheap on their drives makes me suspect of their security measures as a whole. Then again, that is just my personal assumption as neither one of us know what measures they have in place.

I digress,

The reality of it is, no matter how reliable Backblaze is to the consumer, they are still subjecting consumer drives to environments they aren't intended to be in. They, like any other platform, have real security concerns. Ultimately it is up to the end consumer to make the choice on who they want to store data with, and the reliability results from BB can be taken with a pound of salt.

Frankly, any data that I would go to the expense of backing up with a storage provider, I would have deemed extremely important. With that knowledge, I wouldn't openly use a provider that is using consumer drives in the DC environment. As I have been witness to entire arrays failing and massive amounts of customer data lost, because someone wanted to save a buck.

Acting like that doesn't happen is a gamble with your data.

thumb.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by HanSomPa View Post

........ with a dedicated lab staffed by Ph.D. or something.

But BackBlaze does use/have a Ph.D.....

As they are Pretty Hard on their Drives.

biggrin.gif

Of course nothing no one is completely immune to being hacked; that is why I said "it's pretty much impossible". You are the one who doesn't understand how data is protected at the better cloud backup services (cloud storage sites, especially free one, are not included). Employees of those companies do NOT have access to your data because the data is encrypted before it ever leaves your computer and you have the only key so your data cannot be accessed by a hacker. In fact, you are far more likely to lose your data on your own computer than from a good paid cloud backup service. A hacker may get into the data and erase it (again, that is highly unlikely) but he will not be able to actually see your data. As I have pointed out before, no one should depend on any one backup set. No matter what kind of media one uses for a backup—HDDs, ODs, floppies, the cloud, stone tablets, etc.—all backups can fail, albeit some are more susceptible to loss than others. That is why one should never depend on only one backup.

I will admit that Backblaze doesn't do the best job of reporting the data it has collected but the fact is the data is valid and accurate; you just to study the reports (plural because not every report includes everything) to glean proper conclusions. Keep in mind that Backblaze in the business to backup data, not just collect and report data on the reliability of certain HDDs; the fact that they do share the data, however chaotically, is commendable. It's more than anyone else has done.

If Backblaze had reliability and security issues, they would not still be in business after nine years. Their business plan is radically different but it has been successful for them.
     
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post #162 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by HanSomPa View Post

I am not talking about the curve, that's actually very much in line with everything I've read in both studies and online publications. What I am talking about is the ridiculous failure rates on some of the Seagate drives.

I am not interested in seeing companies names being dragged through mud because of one set of data given by one publihser. I am not suggesting that anyone has a Seagate agenda, i'm just not comfortable with the idea of never, ever trusting Seagate over WD or Hitachi because of one set of data points... Sure, Seagate drives may fail more than others, but I don't want to hear crap like, "don't ever buy Seagate, they fail". Which is what these articles have generated. It's stupid and anti-intellectual.
Backblaze have provided very useful data based on their real-world usage. That's great, I love it and that's what every company should do. Constantly analyze their business to improve it. However, taking these reports in a manner akin to a scientific study is ridiculous. A scientific report is subject to way more scrutiny than Backblaze has been... and Backblaze's data has way more authority than a scientific report... I don't see anyone quoting Academic jounrals when trying to prove that picking a hard drive could ultimately be irrelevant... or why someone's anecdotal evidence is crap... It's tiring.

I appreciate what Backblaze is doing, but they are not a lab running tests on hard drive reliability. If want to be a consumer agency that provides these kind of statistics like J.D. Power or Consumer Reports(Who I also think are complete crap because their methodology is utter rubbish a lot of the time) then they should have a better and more uniform methodology. Real-life data is useful, but it's not unbiased like real data gained through a rigorous scientific method. Again, I really like that Backblaze is publishing this data, but I hate that it's spouted every time as if it's a consumer reporting agency with a dedicated lab staffed by Ph.D. or something.

Not many regular users use anti-vibration who use common cases ... I appreciate backblaze data and even more with their youtube shares about their cases
some of user use certain cases or add-ons to cut vibrations or direct air flow to keep drives cool then we could look at certain point in time when they put that case into service
perhaps they should put case type as part of their data to show how each iteration helps or hinders HDD life

Somewhere the data approaches the point where its just the batch of drives that fails which mfr is better or not but they don't correlate that with hdd mfr evolution
ie: this batch was made in thailand n this batch was made in china for a given mfr, each batch had their respective quality n hopefully over time china quality was improving while thailand was shutdown

I just like a reliable HDD I don't like running into drives that a lot of ppl report defectiveness ... it doesn't come up when buying at amazon or newegg
its like you have to check another website to see ones shopping drive is having a class action lawsuit

in our server room yes we hit a bad batch of enterprise drives and thats when we complain to our source sometimes we change sources because maybe they handle the shipping of the drives better than the other or better customer service that rebates us for our drives

sure ppl have to take a risk when buying their drive of choice
ie: seagate 13% failure rate and has a great price and source shipping unknow handling
the risk is whether or not the statistics is spot on or the luck of the draw one received a drive that's runs better than its failure rate
for backblaze they must buy by the crate of drives all nicely packed compared to regular users who maybe at the mercy of amazon\newegg\other item pickers who might mishandle the drives they are going to ship
Edited by hhuey5 - 2/22/16 at 5:59pm
post #163 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by parityboy View Post

...I would happily use BackBlaze for business backup, the only gripe being the fact that they only have one data center. But having said that, that's really my problem to mitigate rather than theirs. After all, it's my data, and therefore my responsibility. smile.gif

The fact that Backblaze has no geo-redundancy (i.e., they have only one data center, not multiples ones scattered over a large area) would be the reason why I wouldn't use them for business backups. However, backup services that do have geo-redundancy do not offer it for personal plans that are competitive with Backblaze's personal plan. To get geo-redundancy for your data, you have to get the far more expensive business plans.
     
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post #164 of 223
lol two of the WD black in my sig rig are hitting 4 years old and still perfect.

the pc i gave my parents has a WD black, 3 years old now and strong as ever.

WD blue in my sisters netbook it unstoppable at 2 years old.

the only WD drives i have ever seen are OME laptop drives.
post #165 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie View Post

...Oh, and as always, have backups for your backups.

biggrin.gif

Finally; something we agree on. thumb.gif I've been saying that all along.
     
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post #166 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by parityboy View Post

Bookmarked! biggrin.gif
Iknorite biggrin.gif
Quote:
1) BackBlaze , in one of their earlier blog posts, said the decision to use consumer drives wasn't simply based on cost but justified upon the basis that the failure rates of enterprise drives (I assume 7.2K RPM NL drives) they had seen in their own testing were not so much better than consumer level drives that they could justify the cost differential of the enterprise units.
Check this out: http://storagemojo.com/2007/02/20/everything-you-know-about-disks-is-wrong/

2007, so the study may be dated given newer technologies and manufacturing methods
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post #167 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald View Post

The fact that Backblaze has no geo-redundancy (i.e., they have only one data center, not multiples ones scattered over a large area) would be the reason why I wouldn't use them for business backups. However, backup services that do have geo-redundancy do not offer it for personal plans that are competitive with Backblaze's personal plan. To get geo-redundancy for your data, you have to get the far more expensive business plans.

If they were just as expensive as the ones which do offer geo-redundancy then I would certainly agree with you. But the facts are that a) they don't and b) the data is still my responsibility. BackBlaze have already proven that cheap redundancy works, so why not embrace that philosophy? Use two cheap online backup services, plus a local physical backup (i.e. tape) placed in a fireproof environment.

Redundancy wins over exotic hardware, every time. biggrin.gif


@claes

Many thanks for that link. As old as it is, hard drive technology is a well-known quantity and apart from the techniques to increase platter density, their design hasn't fundamentally changed, so the study pretty much still applies.
Edited by parityboy - 2/22/16 at 6:11pm
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post #168 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by claes View Post

Iknorite biggrin.gif
Check this out: http://storagemojo.com/2007/02/20/everything-you-know-about-disks-is-wrong/

2007, so the study may be dated given newer technologies and manufacturing methods

i love this comment
Quote:
Wow – just discovered this thread after how many years? Anyway, it looks like it’s really the Mercedes theory of reliability: if you have a part that based on testing and design you expect to last 75000 =/- 25000 miles, you schedule it for replacement every 25000 miles. That way, absent “infant mortality”, it’ll never break

that's exactly the method a race car team used when they decided to use consumer car engines
they decided that if an engine can last between one and three races they decided that every major race they will run on a new tested consumer engine
I'm pretty sure they weeded out the engines that didn't work out and made sure their backup care has an engine that works as well as bringing other backup engines
but they were a new race team so over time they got better at keeping their cars reliable for every race

in our data center we don't wait for drive to completely fail if any of us see's a drive show a warning during the day or the report gives indication of failure
we replace asap or we order new drives
we don't keep a big stock like cloud center do but the drives come quick enough when it comes time to replace
the source runs intermittent sales so it a reason to not keep too many drives on hand
Edited by hhuey5 - 2/22/16 at 6:16pm
post #169 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald View Post

Of course nothing no one is completely immune to being hacked; that is why I said "it's pretty much impossible". You are the one who doesn't understand how data is protected at the better cloud backup services (cloud storage sites, especially free one, are not included). Employees of those companies do NOT have access to your data because the data is encrypted before it ever leaves your computer and you have the only key so your data cannot be accessed by a hacker. In fact, you are far more likely to lose your data on your own computer than from a good paid cloud backup service. A hacker may get into the data and erase it (again, that is highly unlikely) but he will not be able to actually see your data. As I have pointed out before, no one should depend on any one backup set. No matter what kind of media one uses for a backup—HDDs, ODs, floppies, the cloud, stone tablets, etc.—all backups can fail, albeit some are more susceptible to loss than others. That is why one should never depend on only one backup.

I will admit that Backblaze doesn't do the best job of reporting the data it has collected but the fact is the data is valid and accurate; you just to study the reports (plural because not every report includes everything) to glean proper conclusions. Keep in mind that Backblaze in the business to backup data, not just collect and report data on the reliability of certain HDDs; the fact that they do share the data, however chaotically, is commendable. It's more than anyone else has done.

If Backblaze had reliability and security issues, they would not still be in business after nine years. Their business plan is radically different but it has been successful for them.

Nope, sure don't know how data is protected, not in the slightest bit.

rolleyes.gif

Just going to ignore the ISP factor, and that I have (unfortunately) spent more time in a DC than most people. As well have thrown mountains of resources at the subject.

Curious, where did I say it was going to be an employees access to a customers data that is the source of the compromise? I didn't, I stated it is human error.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie View Post

Especially in light that most breaches are accomplished via exploiting human error, especially where behavior is concerned.

This is an absolutely undeniable fact.

EDIT:

The above smart ass reply isn't to say I know it all, but to say I don't know is far from the truth. There is, however, a level at which I step back and throw a wallet at it.

thumb.gif
Edited by PostalTwinkie - 2/22/16 at 7:45pm
    
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post #170 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by parityboy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald View Post

The fact that Backblaze has no geo-redundancy (i.e., they have only one data center, not multiples ones scattered over a large area) would be the reason why I wouldn't use them for business backups. However, backup services that do have geo-redundancy do not offer it for personal plans that are competitive with Backblaze's personal plan. To get geo-redundancy for your data, you have to get the far more expensive business plans.

If they were just as expensive as the ones which do offer geo-redundancy then I would certainly agree with you. But the facts are that a) they don't and b) the data is still my responsibility. BackBlaze have already proven that cheap redundancy works, so why not embrace that philosophy? Use two cheap online backup services, plus a local physical backup (i.e. tape) placed in a fireproof environment.

Redundancy wins over exotic hardware, every time. biggrin.gif...

I totally agree that the safety of your data is your responsibility.

Your theory for using two cheap online backup services to achieve geo-redundancy is intriguing but there are certain variables that would have to be considered. To be viable, the "cheap" backup services you use have to be reliable and secure. The cost of using two that are reliable and secure may be more expensive than using a business plan that does have geo-redundancy. Also, since not all cloud backup services use their own servers—some rent space from another service, such as Amazon's commercial servers (not their Cloud Drive)—you would have to make sure that the two services you choose do not use the same server farm. Another factor to consider is the doubled internet bandwidth you use may increase the cost of your internet service.

I use a different variation of geo-redundancy. I use four backup HDDs for every HDD I have in service (right now, only three): two locally (onsite) and two offsite in my safe deposit in the fireproof vault (which is anchored to bedrock; I saw that mini Fort Knox being built) at my credit union roughly six miles from where I live. I swap out the onsite drives with the offsite drives no less than once a month. Since the offsite drives will not have any data added or changed after the time they go in the vault, I also maintain a Carbonite account. If I relied on just the Carbonite account to recover all my data, it would take forever (weeks to months) to recover all of it. But, by having the offsite HDDs, I can recover the vast majority of my data in just a day or two (working round the clock), then recovering the rest of the data from Carbonite will take only another handful of days or less.

While having two backup HDDs for each HDD in service may seem excessive, even backup HDDs can fail without warning, hence the extra HDD. It saved my bacon data once. I had a HDD in my computer get corrupted once (I didn't catch it right away because I could still read and write data from and to it) and it took out the backup HDD when I was updating. Of course, this happened on a Friday evening on a three day weekend. I could have waited until Tuesday to retrieve the backup from the credit union, then get the balance of the data from Carbonite in another day or two but, since I had the second backup HDD available, all I had to do was reformat the corrupted HDD in my computer and the damaged backup HDD, clone the second backup to the reformatted HDD, then clone the now recovered HDD in the computer to the one taken out by the corrupted HDD. I didn't have to resort to recovering any files from Carbonite since I knew which data had been added since I had previously backed up the HDD that got corrupted so it was simple for me to copy it from the corrupted HDD to another one before I formatted it, then copy it back after I had restored the corrupted HDD from the second backup. I had my computer back up to "full speed" in only about 4 hours and the damaged backup repaired (reformat and cloned) in another 3.5 hours instead of at least six days.
     
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