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[DigitalFoundry] Is It Time To Upgrade Your Core i5 2500K? - Page 31  

post #301 of 402
Quote:
Originally Posted by grss1982 View Post


I find myself in such a situation also. Currently rocking a non OC-ed i5 3470 and from my perspective it's "good enough" for the games that I play and some other computer stuff that I do. I also have a 775-based system (C2D E8500 IIRC) lying around in pieces that I plan to bring back to life because my parents need it for FB. I don't foresee them ever needing something beefier unless of course dad suddenly wants to play Crysis or something. biggrin.gif

I'm the opposite. At the current rate chips are increasing in performance, I estimated it would take another 9-10 years for me to get 60fps in Oblivion. CCleaner takes like 10 seconds to fully initialize with CCEnhancer. Unpacking and packing mods for Skyrim can take a bit. I've taken care to try to minimize CPU thrashing on Skyrim, but faster chips would always be appreciated. MUGEN level loading is CPU bottlenecked. Yeah, CPU bottlenecked. The lowest fps troughs in FO4 are CPU limited. And just other random odd things I happen to be doing... Can't exactly SLI CPUs, so...

 

From the perspective of chess, more cores is better, but that's not my top priority right now.

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post #302 of 402
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnek View Post

The problem with strict adherence to the definition of "bottleneck" is, anytime you have less than absolute top of the line hardware in your system, you're technically being "bottlenecked", which is completely absurd.

If you believe the definition of bottleneck is absurd, then don't use that definition, or simply use a different word. I see nothing absurd about the definition of bottleneck. Normally, it's not possible to have the very best hardware, because hardware companies are sometimes/often in possession of newer, unreleased, higher performance hardware.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/bottleneck
A point or an area of traffic congestion.
To slow down or impede by creating an obstruction.
something that holds up progress, esp of a manufacturing process
a narrow stretch of road or a junction at which traffic is or may be held up
a stage at which progress is impeded.
Edited by Partol - 2/29/16 at 3:02am
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post #303 of 402
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnek View Post

The problem with strict adherence to the definition of "bottleneck" is, anytime you have less than absolute top of the line hardware in your system, you're technically being "bottlenecked", which is completely absurd.

You arguably still have a bottleneck even if you have the absolute top of the line hardware. You simply have no way to remove it. I don't believe that applying the definition this strictly is in the spirit of the metaphor though. Just by looking at the neck of a bottle you can see that the intended meaning is a material impact on throughput. Even the definitions quoted above lean away from merely "the slowest part of the system."
    
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post #304 of 402
Something is always the limiting factor. Could be your CPU/Ram/storage/connection/GPU/Game engine. Whatever. Something will always stop some other part from performing to its highest possible level. Key is to remove that as much as possible on your part by matching comparable hardware with hopefully competent software.

Bottlenecking is also relevant to the res/refresh/settings being used. Once again, something is always holding something else back.

When I personally start thinking of it as bottlenecking is when I feel like my experience suffers because of it.
     
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post #305 of 402
Quote:
As I noted earlier, using the lazy premise that any CPU that performs worse than another with the same GPU installed would mean that literally EVERY processor in use today is a "bottleneck" in gaming other than the top rated Skylake processors. That's just ridiculous IMO...

It's not a lazy premise. You'll always have a bottleneck somewhere. It might be very small (10% performance gain if eliminated) or very large (500%+ performance gain if eliminated) but even within the same game and engine, demands change depending on what you're doing.

If you take Starcraft 2 for example which is heavily CPU bottlenecked, you can run a gtx960 and a 980 side by side and they'll have the same framerate even though the 980 is literally twice as fast.

You can take Sandy Bridge vs Skylake and get 40% more FPS on the Skylake system, because it's CPU bottlenecked at that time.

--

If you look at another game that's CPU light, especially run at a high resolution, you can see no FPS difference between Sandy bridge and Skylake in a certain scene. You can then swap from a 960 to a 980 and see FPS double.

If everything else in the system can run 100fps but the GPU can only handle 40, then doubling GPU perf can allow the game to run at 80fps because the GPU is slowing performance to 40% of what the system can achieve.


It's a bottleneck because one part of the system in particular is holding back performance at that point. You could improve everything else in the system aside from that part and see either no performance change or highly limited performance change; And once again, it can be a small or a very large bottleneck depending on the parts and exactly what they're doing at the time.

Quote:
You arguably still have a bottleneck even if you have the absolute top of the line hardware. You simply have no way to remove it.

Yes, this is 100% true. There are a lot of CPU heavy games out there that are not challenging to the latest GPU's. To use Starcraft 2 again as an example, that game was CPU bottlenecked on a gtx460 whenever a lot of units came out. In a big battle, you'll see a 980ti at 10% graphics load. If we had a CPU 3x faster than a 6600k, then the game would run 3x faster - there's literally nothing preventing that from happening aside from CPU performance. Meanwhile swapping from a 950 to a 980ti would see no performance change.
Edited by Cyro999 - 2/29/16 at 9:53am
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post #306 of 402
Quote:
Originally Posted by Partol View Post

If you believe the definition of bottleneck is absurd, then don't use that definition, or simply use a different word. I see nothing absurd about the definition of bottleneck. Normally, it's not possible to have the very best hardware, because hardware companies are sometimes/often in possession of newer, unreleased, higher performance hardware.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/bottleneck
A point or an area of traffic congestion.
To slow down or impede by creating an obstruction.
something that holds up progress, esp of a manufacturing process
a narrow stretch of road or a junction at which traffic is or may be held up
a stage at which progress is impeded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by randomizer View Post

You arguably still have a bottleneck even if you have the absolute top of the line hardware. You simply have no way to remove it. I don't believe that applying the definition this strictly is in the spirit of the metaphor though. Just by looking at the neck of a bottle you can see that the intended meaning is a material impact on throughput. Even the definitions quoted above lean away from merely "the slowest part of the system."

And that's precisely the problem. "The spirit of the metaphor" is ambiguous and poorly defined, as is "material impact". As pointed out previously, at what point does a diminishing performance constitute a "CPU bottleneck"? Say switching from a 2500K to a 6600K both at the same clocks gave a 10% boost in performance, would that be a bottleneck? How about 20%? 30%? Then you have to consider that each person has different tolerances and perceptive abilities, and it becomes even less fruitful to throw around the term "bottleneck" blindly.
post #307 of 402
If you have two systems identical otherwise and a 980 is twice as fast as a 960 (this is approximately true; it's a straight double)



System 1 has a gtx960, runs at 50fps. 62% CPU load - 100% GPU load


System 2 has a gtx980, runs at 80fps. 100% CPU load - 80% GPU load



System 1 is bottlenecked by the 960. It could achieve 80fps but can only reach 50 because of the 960.

System 2 is bottlenecked by the CPU. It could achieve 100fps but can only reach 80 because of the CPU.



It shifts around a LOT depending on the game, settings, scene, any particular demands etc but that's the general idea. You usually have a situation where one part is partially idle and another is maxed out and defining your performance, which is why it's important to look at which part that is, where and why - if you were to upgrade the part that was idle and waiting for it, then your FPS wouldn't go up at that particular time.

That's part at full load is usually the graphics card unless you're looking at games older than a few years (graphics cards advance far faster than CPU's) or games in the RTS/MMO/physics genres.
Edited by Cyro999 - 2/29/16 at 9:56am
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post #308 of 402
@ cyro for sc2 that's not entirely true you do get higher performance with the 980 vs the 960 granted that you set both to high perf in nvidia controll panel but it's still a ****ty coded engine that suffers more from the cpu in use than the gpu

most games that are actually cpu limited have horrible coding behind them SC2 / FO3/NV/4 / skyrim / oblivion to name a few

hell even with my 5960x oblivion has cpu issues no matter the oc i throw at it cause the engine is a huge turd

@ darkwizzie i simply haven't played skyrim in about 3months ever since i rebuilded my system since i had to wait a full month on getting rma's done and i'm simply bad with names has nothing todo with me playing or not playing skyrim alot (hint i played quitte a bit off skyrim) and what i meant is that you get performance dips in that area due to bad coding this can easily be checked with skyrim perf monitor when you scale past 4k
Edited by Cyb3r - 2/29/16 at 11:23am
post #309 of 402
Quote:
you do get higher performance with the 980 vs the 960

Maybe if you set max graphics and get 500fps on one vs 300 on the other at the start of the game. When performance actually matters, it's the same on both.

You can claim that every game that maxes out a thread on a decent CPU is poorly coded, terrible engine etc but that doesn't change anything, even if it were entirely true (it's not.)
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post #310 of 402
@ cyro i meant fps in a max vs max battle you do notice the difference when there's alot off spellcasting going on between 2 armies (skyzerg vs mech for example) it's been better since lotv but still not what it should be
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