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[Anand] Ashes of the Singularity Revisited: A Beta Look at DirectX 12 & Asynchronous Shading - Page 15

post #141 of 1175

ExtremeTech renewed their editorial, too.
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post #142 of 1175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahigan View Post

NVIDIA were silent 6 months ago and have been since. In that time they've enabled Asynchronous compute, silently, in their driver. The thing is, however, what NVIDIA and Microsoft call "Asynchronous Compute" is not how AMD calls it or implemented it under Mantle.

For NVIDIA and Microsoft, Asynchronous compute is defined the same way as it is defined in computer science. It means that there is no defined order of execution between jobs in the same batch.

AMD take it a step further. For AMD, Asynchronous compute adds both concurrent and parallel execution of jobs. This is why AMD gains more performance. AMDs added hardware redundancy allows them to perform Asynchronous compute + graphics. Meaning that both Graphics and Compute jobs can be executed in parallel as well as concurrently.

So NVIDIA do have Asynchronous compute enabled in their driver, as Kollock stated, they just don't or can't take advantage of it. That's precisely what I had predicted almost 6 months ago.
Some of your posts are good, but I never saw you mention once to people that Ashes is a game heavily sponsored by AMD with big AMD logo on game's website. You always seem to conveniently leave this info out.

Care to comment about DX12 performance in this game, which is a bit more neutral and isn't sponsored by neither AMD or Nvidia? http://www.anandtech.com/show/9659/fable-legends-directx-12-benchmark-analysis/2
post #143 of 1175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glottis View Post

Some of your posts are good, but I never saw you mention once to people that Ashes is a game heavily sponsored by AMD with big AMD logo on game's website. You always seem to conveniently leave this info out.

thumb.gif
post #144 of 1175
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedyVT View Post

They did cut an awful lot of corners with this generation although people will be tremendous naysayers to this statement. Seriously 980 is an older architecture than the 970, 970 has only 3.5GB of effective memory. (Performance loss or not) They threw out a GT 930 which wasn't even better than iGPUs, hasn't been released in US markets yet. The only crème de la crème of this generation worth owning in my book is the 980 ti and the 960.

You can buy a R9 390 w/ 8gb of VRAM for the same price as a 970. Yeah it consumes more but recently has been scoring a good 20-25% more than the 970. Some DX12 based benchmarks, even Vulkan has it above the 980.

The GTX 960 isn't even worth it since the R9 380 exist. Like I've said countless times the only nvidia card worth owing over amd counterparts is the GTX 980Ti.
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post #145 of 1175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glottis View Post

Some of your posts are good, but I never saw you mention once to people that Ashes is a game heavily sponsored by AMD with big AMD logo on game's website. You always seem to conveniently leave this info out.

Care to comment about DX12 performance in this game, which is a bit more neutral and isn't sponsored by neither AMD or Nvidia? http://www.anandtech.com/show/9659/fable-legends-directx-12-benchmark-analysis/2

But oxide has a branch that is open sourced to all the IHV and they can see the source code and make changes if they want.

http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/223567-amd-clobbers-nvidia-in-updated-ashes-of-the-singularity-directx-12-benchmark
Quote:
[W]e have created a special branch where not only can vendors see our source code, but they can even submit proposed changes. That is, if they want to suggest a change our branch gives them permission to do so…

This branch is synchronized directly from our main branch so it’s usually less than a week from our very latest internal main software development branch. IHVs are free to make their own builds, or test the intermediate drops that we give our QA.

Oxide also addresses the question of whether or not it optimizes for specific engines or graphics architectures directly.

Oxide primarily optimizes at an algorithmic level, not for any specific hardware. We also take care to avoid the proverbial known “glass jaws” which every hardware has. However, we do not write our code or tune for any specific GPU in mind. We find this is simply too time consuming, and we must run on a wide variety of GPUs. We believe our code is very typical of a reasonably optimized PC game.
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post #146 of 1175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glottis View Post

Some of your posts are good, but I never saw you mention once to people that Ashes is a game heavily sponsored by AMD with big AMD logo on game's website. You always seem to conveniently leave this info out.

Care to comment about DX12 performance in this game, which is a bit more neutral and isn't sponsored by neither AMD or Nvidia? http://www.anandtech.com/show/9659/fable-legends-directx-12-benchmark-analysis/2
Because it isn't what you think it is.... From Kollock, which works in the dev team;

Quote;
Certainly I could see how one might see that we are working closer with one hardware vendor then the other, but the numbers don't really bare that out. Since we've started, I think we've had about 3 site visits from NVidia, 3 from AMD, and 2 from Intel ( and 0 from Microsoft, but they never come visit anyone ;(). Nvidia was actually a far more active collaborator over the summer then AMD was, If you judged from email traffic and code-checkins, you'd draw the conclusion we were working closer with Nvidia rather than AMD wink.gif As you've pointed out, there does exist a marketing agreement between Stardock (our publisher) for Ashes with AMD. But this is typical of almost every major PC game I've ever worked on (Civ 5 had a marketing agreement with NVidia, for example). Without getting into the specifics, I believe the primary goal of AMD is to promote D3D12 titles as they have also lined up a few other D3D12 games.

If you use this metric, however, given Nvidia's promotions with Unreal (and integration with Gameworks) you'd have to say that every Unreal game is biased, not to mention virtually every game that's commonly used as a benchmark since most of them have a promotion agreement with someone. Certainly, one might argue that Unreal being an engine with many titles should give it particular weight, and I wouldn't disagree. However, Ashes is not the only game being developed with Nitrous. It is also being used in several additional titles right now, the only announced one being the Star Control reboot. (Which I am super excited about! But that's a completely other topic wink.gif).

Personally, I think one could just as easily make the claim that we were biased toward Nvidia as the only 'vendor' specific code is for Nvidia where we had to shutdown async compute. By vendor specific, I mean a case where we look at the Vendor ID and make changes to our rendering path.


http://www.overclock.net/t/1569897/various-ashes-of-the-singularity-dx12-benchmarks/1200_20#post_24356995
post #147 of 1175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glottis View Post

Some of your posts are good, but I never saw you mention once to people that Ashes is a game heavily sponsored by AMD with big AMD logo on game's website. You always seem to conveniently leave this info out.

Care to comment about DX12 performance in this game, which is a bit more neutral and isn't sponsored by neither AMD or Nvidia? http://www.anandtech.com/show/9659/fable-legends-directx-12-benchmark-analysis/2

If Nivida hardware and drivers are superior, the AMD logo won't make any difference right?
post #148 of 1175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahigan View Post

Oh and confirmed Asynchronous compute support under:

Hitman
Gears of War Ultimate Edition
Deus Ex: Mankind Divided
Fable Legends
Battlefield 5
Star Citizen


Confirmed DX12 titles with no info on Asynchronous Compute:

Quantum Break
Need For Speed
The Elder Scrolls Online (patch)
Just Cause 3 (patch)

That's not bad.

You have any sources on Star Citizen? I thought people have tried to get them to comment on it before but they wouldn't. I know they plan to support DX12, but don't recall anything specific re: asynch compute. Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahigan View Post

Yes, NVIDIA have more money. Yes, AMD are in debt. NVIDIA may very well be participating in shady business practices (licensing agreements that cut out the competition). What you say is either true or more than likely true.

Here's the thing though, Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)


So that's AMD RTGs next gen Polaris GPU. The first shot is a block diagram and lets look into what it shows,

New Command Processor
New Geometry Processor
New Compute Units
New L2 Cache
New Memory Controller
New Multimedia Cores
New Display Engine
New Instruction pre-fetching

Now we're talking about how NVIDIA can buy game developer's. Fine, and do what?

- Boost tessellation? Polaris comes with Geometry Processors, not units, so it is a Primitive Discard Accelerator. In others words, we're looking at a large tessellation performance increase.

- Compel developer's to stay on DX11? Polaris has a new Command Processor with either more queue slots or a larger queue as well as a larger Command Buffer for increased single threaded performance. Polaris is also boosting its shader efficiency by re-designing their CUs. So we might see a different number of SIMDs per CU or a new large cache.

- New Multimedia cores is for livestreaming (shadow play) etc.

- New Display Engine is for HDR (better colors).

- New L2 Cache is for lowering latencies as well as allowing a higher GPU utilization without running into bottlenecks.

- New memory controller with new color compression is for compressing pixel data so that it reduces the amount of memory bandwidth during transfers. More efficient use out of available memory bandwidth as well.

- New Instruction pre-fetching allows to fetch instructions from memory and onto cache before the instructions are needed. This significantly reduces latency.

So Polaris fixes GCNs short comings. DX12 is a bonus. Asynchronous Compute is an additional bonus.

So what is NVIDIAs money going to buy?
So the new command processor is intended to address the DX11 architecture performance issues you discussed earlier in the thread?

Might be minor but I appreciate the multimedia cores upgrade. I use shadowplay all the time and it was a bummer to hear current AMD cards' VCE (not sure of fury/furyx) couldn't actually encode above 1080p.
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post #149 of 1175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

Yet nvidia had a record selling year, again, and AMD have been losing ground, again.
So if your claim was always right, why aren't we all having AMD cards, and why nvidia didn't suddenly disappear for having higher priced cards?
Because people are biased towards nVidia. They've fallen for nVidia's marketing schemes. They are emotionally attached to the brand rather than objective. I've been telling everyone that AMD's R9 390 is the better buy right now, but everyone still flocked to the GTX 970 like sheep. I hope they feel the burn as time progresses. They should use their brains when buying products.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

Price, is not everything. The fact that nvidia for a bit more money, sells their better GPUs, is the bottom line. No beta or alpha results are going to matter unless once the game is out, AMD will show performance gains and better results once nvidia driver team do their job.
This will not be fixed by a driver. It is representative of the performance in the final game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

To remind you, that ashes is a game fully optimised and developed with AMD, but not with nvidia. Meaning that of course we will get optimised drivers to AMD, and alpha and beta results will always favour AMD.
Wrong. See my prior post above which has Kollock's quote.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

This is also a bit hypocritical from AMD, as games developed but nvidia, aren't being constantly advertised at "look at those beta performance results! aren't they better than AMD?".
nVidia works differently. They hamper AMD's performance close to release with some GameWorks stuff, so that nVidia's cards look better in the benchmarks. After a while, AMD catches up or even surpasses them, but, most people don't look for those benchmarks, and lots of sites don't even re-run their benchmarks with newer drivers. So nVidia appears better even when they're not.
post #150 of 1175
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightAntilli View Post

Because people are biased towards nVidia. They've fallen for nVidia's marketing schemes. They are emotionally attached to the brand rather than objective. I've been telling everyone that AMD's R9 390 is the better buy right now, but everyone still flocked to the GTX 970 like sheep. I hope they feel the burn as time progresses. They should use their brains when buying products.
And there are people biased towards AMD, that's how it always was and always will be. Your comment makes this perfectly clear, you seem to be more concerned about people getting "owned" buying "wrong" graphics card, than actually helping them with decision. Maybe if you were less arrogant when helping people decide they would have chosen a 390? Just a thought.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightAntilli View Post

This will not be fixed by a driver. It is representative of the performance in the final game.
No this isn't representative of final game, even devs said that it's just a beta and shipping product performance will be different.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightAntilli View Post

Wrong. See my prior post above which has Kollock's quote.
this dev confirmed they partner with AMD. which is known for a long time with AMD logo on their website and oxyde promoting AMD products on various tech conferences.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightAntilli View Post

nVidia works differently. They hamper AMD's performance close to release with some GameWorks stuff, so that nVidia's cards look better in the benchmarks. After a while, AMD catches up or even surpasses them, but, most people don't look for those benchmarks, and lots of sites don't even re-run their benchmarks with newer drivers. So nVidia appears better even when they're not.
you mean like Project CARS when people like you screamed it was sabotaged by Nvidia, but turns out AMD was just slacking off with drivers and now Project CARS performance with AMD cards is about on par as with Nvidia cards. you mean people don't look for such benchmarks?
Edited by Glottis - 2/25/16 at 5:28am
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