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[Anand] Ashes of the Singularity Revisited: A Beta Look at DirectX 12 & Asynchronous Shading - Page 34

post #331 of 1175
Article from Seekingalpha.

The true gist of this article is that at least when it comes to GPUs, the miracle AMD needed might have arrived.

AMD had long sustained that with DirectX 12 (which is the version that ships with Windows 10), its cards would be more competitive. Customers, however, had no way of knowing this. Indeed, if anything AMD seemed to be overplaying its cards yet again, for as it unveiled its Fury X cards they turned out to apparently once again be slower than already existing nVidia cards (GTX 980 Ti). For instance, AMD provided encouraging benchmarks.

This, alas, then seemingly didn't materialize fully. This once again disappointed the market and put into doubt AMD's ability to recover the lost GPU share.

So what hope remained? The thing here is that the comparisons showing AMD's latest struggling to match the older nVidia competitor were, even if run on Windows 10, still designed for prior DirectX implementations. They thus didn't fully utilize DirectX 12's ability to execute several GPU commands asynchronously, which would take much greater advantage of a GPU's true capacity.

Even now, no game on the market has yet implemented such ability. But as it turns out, the first benchmarks using such feature have become available in the last few days, using a game that's being readied to take advantage of it ("Ashes of the Singularity"). And therein the miracle saw the light.

It turns out that AMD's cards, and not just its latest, do outperform nVidia's once this feature is used. And what's more, they outperform nVidia on account of a structural, hardware-determined, advantage. That is, nVidia can't recoup the difference through driver changes (though it can minimize the disadvantage). Thus, it will take an whole new nVidia generation to bridge this gap, and it's not certain that nVidia will deliver it - whereas it's a near-certainty that AMD will keep this advantage in its next-generation architecture.

While existing games don't utilize this feature, new ones quickly will. Moreover, the gaming community will quickly take notice of this difference. As such, it's likely that until nVidia bridges the gap, AMD will start closing the GPU market share gulf.

This fact thus becomes a possible catalyst favoring AMD going forward. The impact should start right away, as the gaming community becomes aware of AMD's intrinsic advantage when it comes to games fully utilizing DirectX 12.


http://seekingalpha.com/article/3934656-amd-gets-1-2-miracles-needs
post #332 of 1175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pro3ootector View Post

Article from Seekingalpha.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/3934656-amd-gets-1-2-miracles-needs
The article grossly underestimates fanboyism and brand loyalty, nvidians will buy nvidia regardless.Just watch as all manner of contrived metrics start to pop up to justify the geforce purchase.
Edited by PlugSeven - 2/27/16 at 10:21am
post #333 of 1175
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlugSeven View Post

The article grossly underestimates fanboyism and brand loyalty, nvidians will buy nvidia regardless.Just watch as all manner of contrived metrics start to pop up to justify the geforce purchase.

Unfortunately (and I hope I we are not correct), I do think you have it nailed frown.gif

It does not matter what you do. Brand loyalty is above it.
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post #334 of 1175
Takes a long time for brand loyalty to shift/die. Best to never develop such loyalties in the first place.

I know plenty of individuals who will buy NVIDIA no matter what they do, and many of these are the same people who refused to transition from AMD to Intel CPUs until very recently, despite Intel having an incontrovertible edge in the market segments they were interested in since 2006.

Anyway, I'm not sure Seeking Alpha is a particularly good source for tech information. Yes, if AMD holds on to it's DX12 advantage for the next generation and beyond, market share could gradually switch back (people will eventually start buying the better value, even if they had a brand loyalty elsewhere), but that's a pretty big if at this point. Maybe enough for market speculators though.
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post #335 of 1175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

Takes a long time for brand loyalty to shift/die. Best to never develop such loyalties in the first place.

I know plenty of individuals who will buy NVIDIA no matter what they do, and many of these are the same people who refused to transition from AMD to Intel CPUs until very recently, despite Intel having an incontrovertible edge in the market segments they were interested in since 2006.

Anyway, I'm not sure Seeking Alpha is a particularly good source for tech information. Yes, if AMD holds on to it's DX12 advantage for the next generation and beyond, market share could gradually switch back (people will eventually start buying the better value, even if they had a brand loyalty elsewhere), but that's a pretty big if at this point. Maybe enough for market speculators though.

You know, of course, I disagree. Nvidia has customers because it was able to provide hardware, combined with above average software support, relative to its competition. AMD has caught up on the software support side, except for maybe day zero drivers for Nvidia sponsored games. Well, the day zero gamers are turning out to be beta testers for the poorly ported PC games, and this will continue to give a lot of people pause before deciding to buy on console hyped AAA titles. What gives AMD edge for some consumers is the longevity of its optimization support and arch advantage over Nvidia vis-à-vis Dx12. I know this is how I am looking at it. I don’t believe that you can make the same comparison using Intel/AMD history with Nvidia/AMD.

These two have gone back and forth quite a bit, and the so called market share is really what Nvidia sold in dpus last year vs AMD. If AMD comes out with a better product, this will shift back. I don’t know how anyone can look at Nvidia’s customers anything other than as informed consumers who will buy what they view as best for them based on performance and support. There is no contractual agreement binding them Nvidia, so the brand hype is just that. I realize that Nvidia has convinced itself internally that AMD does not exist, and thus, it proceeds to make decisions in a vacuum, as apparent by launch day performance benchmarks that start to slide a few months later, even on Nvidia sponsored gimpworks heavy titles. I don't know why Nvidia can't fathom that may be its customers are not cut out to be Apple type customers. And, even Apple provides an entire solution, OS and hardware, along with a contractual agreement on phones with carriers. So its a device with multiple uses, and an extremely important utility as a communication device. Nvidia doesn't have an OS, GPUs don't have multiple diverse uses other than gaming in this segment, and it is not meeting any mission critical need, such as a phone for communications.

Of course all of this is just my opinion, and I am sure others may have contrary opinions.

And, whoever these “market speculators” are, they better know what they are doing, as I even don’t know what a “fan” is in a commoditized product segment……..

Nvidia's best hope of making loyal customers is to continue to provide better hardware, software and optimization support relative to its competitor.. why is this such a foreign concept, that all Nvidia keeps parroting fans and brand loyalty.. this is pretty basic blocking and tackling and execution......... as long as Nvidia is focused on this consumer gpu segment, not just in words, but in deeds... including dedicating human and financial resources to this segment, other than just layering on proprietary API/library for PC ports ... this is not pushing the market forward, this is just pushing your product via pull through sales.. at some point you need to provide a real, sustaining and substantive value proposition relative to your competition, and for the consumers so that the consumers don't substitute out dgpus for other gaming alternatives
Edited by provost - 2/27/16 at 11:56am
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post #336 of 1175
Quote:
Originally Posted by provost View Post

You know, of course, I disagree. Nvidia has a customers because it was able to provide hardware, combined with above average software support, relative to its competition.

AMD had some major multi-GPU issues until recently, but the multi-GPU market is tiny, and outside of this NVIDIA really hasn't had a decisive edge in product value. Some small advantages here and there, which often switched sides with each new release, but you can't really explain NVIDIA's current edge in discrete market share by looking at just the products or their software support. Public perception is often based on exaggerated differences, or even entirely baseless, at the technical level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by provost View Post

What gives AMD edge for some consumers is the longevity of its optimization support and arch advantage over Nvidia vis-à-vis Dx12.

Longevity of "optimization support" is overstated. I have all sorts of earlier GCN cards and some Kepler cards, and the Kepler parts are by no means unusable or noncompetitive, even if the GCN parts have gained a bit more from drivers. My 7950s are still solid GPUs, as is my reference GTX 780.

The DX12 advantage AMD offers is quite new and there is no telling if it will remain long enough to really influence market share.
Quote:
Originally Posted by provost View Post

I don’t believe that you can make the same comparison using Intel/AMD history with Nvidia/AMD.

My comparison was with respect to the inertia of brand favoritism that can be built up.

I ran predominantly Intel CPUs, barring some budget AMD parts, until the K7...then I used AMD almost exclusively until Core 2 showed up and immediately transitioned over to the newer, and obviously superior (to the K8s that existed at the time) Core 2 based parts. However, many of my peers refused to acknowledge this shift and stuck with AMD. Many of these were the same people who stuck with their Pentium 4s years earlier, even when K7s and K8s were matching or besting them for less money. Should AMD pull a miracle out of it's hat and make Zen so impressive that Intel is again forced to play catch up like they were a decade ago, these same people will again cling to their Intel parts.

I saw the same sort of thing with NVIDIA vs. ATI/AMD on the GPU side. I never had any GeForce FX parts of my own. I went straight from having used GeForce parts from the original GeForce 256 DDR through the GeForce 4ti 4800, to having all ATI Radeon 9000 series parts in the span of six months. Then I had a pretty even mix of X8xx Radeons and GeForce 6800s. Later I skipped the Radeon HD 2000 line entirely in favor of the GeForce 7900s. Many of enthusiasts I knew made either the mistake of sticking with NVIDIA when they should have moved to ATI, or vice versa, or both. I recall ridiculing a few people for going directly from FX 5800 series to the Radeon 2900.

The common theme here is the inclination of people to stick with the name they are familiar with, even if there is strong evidence that a competitor has a product of superior value.
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post #337 of 1175
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlugSeven View Post

The article grossly underestimates fanboyism and brand loyalty, nvidians will buy nvidia regardless. Just watch as all manner of contrived metrics start to pop up to justify the geforce purchase.
And astroturf. But I see you pointed at that with your second sentence.
post #338 of 1175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

AMD had some major multi-GPU issues until recently, but the multi-GPU market is tiny, and outside of this NVIDIA really hasn't had a decisive edge in product value. Some small advantages here and there, which often switched sides with each new release, but you can't really explain NVIDIA's current edge in discrete market share by looking at just the products or their software support. Public perception is often based on exaggerated differences, or even entirely baseless, at the technical level.
Longevity of "optimization support" is overstated. I have all sorts of earlier GCN cards and some Kepler cards, and the Kepler parts are by no means unusable or noncompetitive, even if the GCN parts have gained a bit more from drivers. My 7950s are still solid GPUs, as is my reference GTX 780.

The DX12 advantage AMD offers is quite new and there is no telling if it will remain long enough to really influence market share.
My comparison was with respect to the inertia of brand favoritism that can be built up.

I ran predominantly Intel CPUs, barring some budget AMD parts, until the K7...then I used AMD almost exclusively until Core 2 showed up and immediately transitioned over to the newer, and obviously superior (to the K8s that existed at the time) Core 2 based parts. However, many of my peers refused to acknowledge this shift and stuck with AMD. Many of these were the same people who stuck with their Pentium 4s years earlier, even when K7s and K8s were matching or besting them for less money. Should AMD pull a miracle out of it's hat and make Zen so impressive that Intel is again forced to play catch up like they were a decade ago, these same people will again cling to their Intel parts.

I saw the same sort of thing with NVIDIA vs. ATI/AMD on the GPU side. I never had any GeForce FX parts of my own. I went straight from having used GeForce parts from the original GeForce 256 DDR through the GeForce 4ti 4800, to having all ATI Radeon 9000 series parts in the span of six months. Then I had a pretty even mix of X8xx Radeons and GeForce 6800s. Later I skipped the Radeon HD 2000 line entirely in favor of the GeForce 7900s. Many of enthusiasts I knew made either the mistake of sticking with NVIDIA when they should have moved to ATI, or vice versa, or both. I recall ridiculing a few people for going directly from FX 5800 series to the Radeon 2900.

The common theme here is the inclination of people to stick with the name they are familiar with, even if there is strong evidence that a competitor has a product of superior value.

Well, we will have to agree to disagree on rest of the stuff, I guess time well tell. But, I do I agree with you on the highlighted part, however, that affinity only lasts through perhaps one more purchase. So, for example, I had been very reluctant to move to AMD after 580, 690, Titan to 780 ti. I did not move to Maxwell, and I believe I have outlined those reasons in detail before. But, when I saw AMD cards continue to perform better than my Kepler cards game after game, as the new games were released, and after experiencing numerous driver issues with my multiple gpu set up (including crashing, lack of scaling) I started taking serious notice of alternatives, and yes, including the peasant consoles. I also did some work on understanding where the market may be going next, i.e. DX 11 vs Dx12, and I ultimately decided that moving to AMD in the interim, while I waited for Polaris to come out was the right thing for me. I didn't have to fear losing optimization support on what I had already purchased , and in my opinion, AMD was better positioned to take advantage of next gen games because of its GCN arch. I don't how many other customers will think that same way, but if I was able to make the move which I have been quite happy with so far, there are probably others. And, I had very limited prior exposure to AMD, other than a 7950 in a, I don't know, 4th machine out of 5 or 6.
I still have no clue about AMD CPUs, as Intel hasn't given me a reason yet to change out my aging 3930 in the primary rig, or pushed me to upgrade it every few months (and I mean this in a positive sense). I do have Skylake and Ivy bridge, and may be another intel CPU in some other rigs around my house, but the primary one is the gaming one, even if others are capable.
Edited by provost - 2/27/16 at 12:38pm
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post #339 of 1175
@Provost, appreciate your position but you are describing an idealistic capitalism, which does not take into consideration brand loyalty. People can be otherwise rational actors but still harbor a complete and total allegiance to a brand.

The only reason I can speak to this is that I have one in my family-- my brother absolutely, resolutely refuses to acknowledge AMD GPUs in any way, shape or form. He would rather plummet off the cliff with Nvidia than entertain, for one moment, that AMD has a compelling and competitive brand. As Blameless states, there are many on the Intel side as well.

That's the very definition of fanboy, and there is more than one example of them on these very forums. They confound idealized market forces completely.

Unfortunately this also describes most of the Best Buy and Fry's salespeople I've had the misfortune to interact with.
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post #340 of 1175
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedyVT View Post

Inconsistent frames are worse than 30 fps.
If you have a monitor with strobing, i can assure you that judder will be worse than inconsistent frames.
    
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CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel 6700k 4.5 GHz 1.3v Asus Z170i MSI 980Ti 1490/7760 MHz G.skill DDR4 8 GB x2 3733 MHz 15-15-15-35-1 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Samsung 850 EVO 1 TB Crucial M4 256 GB NH-C14S Windows 10 Student 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
TBD Cooler Master Quick Fire TK Corsair SF600 Fractal Core 500 
MouseMouse PadAudioAudio
Zowie EC2-A Zowie G TF-X Fiio E17 v1 Sennheiser HD 598 
  hide details  
Reply
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