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[Anand] Ashes of the Singularity Revisited: A Beta Look at DirectX 12 & Asynchronous Shading - Page 35

post #341 of 1175
G-Sync is here to strengthen brand loyalty. It will encourage lots of people to get the "worse deal for their money".
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post #342 of 1175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

AMD had some major multi-GPU issues until recently, but the multi-GPU market is tiny, and outside of this NVIDIA really hasn't had a decisive edge in product value. Some small advantages here and there, which often switched sides with each new release, but you can't really explain NVIDIA's current edge in discrete market share by looking at just the products or their software support. Public perception is often based on exaggerated differences, or even entirely baseless, at the technical level.
Longevity of "optimization support" is overstated. I have all sorts of earlier GCN cards and some Kepler cards, and the Kepler parts are by no means unusable or noncompetitive, even if the GCN parts have gained a bit more from drivers. My 7950s are still solid GPUs, as is my reference GTX 780.

The DX12 advantage AMD offers is quite new and there is no telling if it will remain long enough to really influence market share.
My comparison was with respect to the inertia of brand favoritism that can be built up.

I ran predominantly Intel CPUs, barring some budget AMD parts, until the K7...then I used AMD almost exclusively until Core 2 showed up and immediately transitioned over to the newer, and obviously superior (to the K8s that existed at the time) Core 2 based parts. However, many of my peers refused to acknowledge this shift and stuck with AMD. Many of these were the same people who stuck with their Pentium 4s years earlier, even when K7s and K8s were matching or besting them for less money. Should AMD pull a miracle out of it's hat and make Zen so impressive that Intel is again forced to play catch up like they were a decade ago, these same people will again cling to their Intel parts.

I saw the same sort of thing with NVIDIA vs. ATI/AMD on the GPU side. I never had any GeForce FX parts of my own. I went straight from having used GeForce parts from the original GeForce 256 DDR through the GeForce 4ti 4800, to having all ATI Radeon 9000 series parts in the span of six months. Then I had a pretty even mix of X8xx Radeons and GeForce 6800s. Later I skipped the Radeon HD 2000 line entirely in favor of the GeForce 7900s. Many of enthusiasts I knew made either the mistake of sticking with NVIDIA when they should have moved to ATI, or vice versa, or both. I recall ridiculing a few people for going directly from FX 5800 series to the Radeon 2900.

The common theme here is the inclination of people to stick with the name they are familiar with, even if there is strong evidence that a competitor has a product of superior value.

Good call on the bold part. The FX line was absolute trash. What the hell were they thinking sticking a Dustbuster fan on the card? kookoo.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by f1LL View Post

G-Sync is here to strengthen brand loyalty. It will encourage lots of people to get the "worse deal for their money".

I have a GSync monitor and I definitely wouldn't mind buying Polaris if they offer more performance/a better deal. Granted that's mainly because I'm not all that impressed with GSync, and could most certainly live without it.
post #343 of 1175
Quote:
Originally Posted by infranoia View Post

@Provost, appreciate your position but you are describing an idealistic capitalism, which does not take into consideration brand loyalty. People can be otherwise rational actors but still harbor a complete and total allegiance to a brand.

The only reason I can speak to this is that I have one in my family-- my brother absolutely, resolutely refuses to acknowledge AMD GPUs in any way, shape or form. He would rather plummet off the cliff with Nvidia than entertain, for one moment, that AMD has a compelling and competitive brand. As Blameless states, there are many on the Intel side as well.

That's the very definition of fanboy, and there is more than one example of them on these very forums. They confound idealized market forces completely.

Unfortunately this also describes most of the Best Buy and Fry's salespeople I've had the misfortune to interact with.

I guess I should have read Blamless' comments in the last paragraph regarding him running Intel/AMD more carefully, as well as his conclusion. But, my ADD added to my reading incomprehension, and after reading the first two paragraphs, which I did not agree with, I assumed the rest was along the same lines, and I went right to the last two lines. You know what they say about someone who makes an assumption right redface.gif The bottom line is that I don't buy into the marketing pitch notion of "buy now, based on these benchmarks" and never mind what our track record is for support, and ignore that we are about to launch new products in a few months and will be conveniently EOl- ing you out. In other words, its very much caveat emptor, so everyone should do their own diligence and come to their own conclusion. I don't know how anyone can even suggest someone to buy a new product from a vendor now, without also informing the prospective buyer that hey by the way, new cards may be around the corner, so your decision, mr. buyer... , and here is our track record of support, etc...

In any event, you can categorize me as one of the not too informed CPU consumers, as i have never had any experience with an AMD CPU, other than knowing the market dynamic that resulted in Intel dominating after being sued for "incentivizing" OEMs, application developers, etc. to gimp AMD CPUs (well more or less, as I am just summarizing), And, the result has not been favorable for the consumers both in terms of price, and innovation, as Intel moved onto other "stuff" after getting a stranglehold on the consumer side. However, its great to see AMD coming back with Zen, and although I don't know too much about it just as yet, other than the basics, it seems like a promising product for the consumer segment. So , I am looking forward to switching out Intel with Zen, if the performance, support, etc is there (and I have no reason to believe otherwise at this time). I have always maintained that I view any seller (meaning company) of anything to me as a vendor, and have no issues trading out one for another, depending on who wants my business more, based on what's important to me as a consumer.
Edited by provost - 2/27/16 at 2:53pm
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post #344 of 1175
I don't see why devs wouldn't use async compute, it's a great feature. Unless NV pay them not to, which wouldn't surprise me.
post #345 of 1175
Quote:
Originally Posted by iLeakStuff View Post

Have you seen their twitter account and what they post there?
https://twitter.com/oxidegames
Tell me that they and AMD isnt working together and milking this for everything it got. For AMD I totally understand it since its a feature they do better than Nvidia, but for Oxide which is a game developer?

They don`t exactly come across as neutral. AMD AMD AMD rolleyes.gif

So them being AMD sponsored and claiming they work with all is wrong while PCars being bloated with Nvidia logos while devs claiming they are not sponsored by Nvidia is right?
post #346 of 1175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

Takes a long time for brand loyalty to shift/die. Best to never develop such loyalties in the first place.

I know plenty of individuals who will buy NVIDIA no matter what they do, and many of these are the same people who refused to transition from AMD to Intel CPUs until very recently, despite Intel having an incontrovertible edge in the market segments they were interested in since 2006.

Anyway, I'm not sure Seeking Alpha is a particularly good source for tech information. Yes, if AMD holds on to it's DX12 advantage for the next generation and beyond, market share could gradually switch back (people will eventually start buying the better value, even if they had a brand loyalty elsewhere), but that's a pretty big if at this point. Maybe enough for market speculators though.
I dont think brand loyalty play the biggest role in shifting the GPU market.

Majority of people buy product that works best right now, not for future proof. The recent shift is because of AMD's lackluster GPU nothing todo with Nvidia being better brand.
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post #347 of 1175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clocknut View Post

I dont think brand loyalty play the biggest role in shifting the GPU market.

Majority of people buy product that works best right now, not for future proof. The recent shift is because of AMD's lackluster GPU nothing todo with Nvidia being better brand.

But as far as I can tell, the "lackluster GPU's" from AMD that people talk about were on launch relatively close to the competing card's performance for less money. I can't be the only one willing to sacrifice 5 fps to save $100. I mean, here in Aus, the GTX 960 was $100 more than the R9 280 and performs roughly the same. I don't see that as lackluster, I see that as pretty solid competition.

Edit: Don't get me wrong though, If I had the money at the time for a top end card, there's a good chance I'd have chosen a 980ti over a FuryX. I'm even still considering a 980ti for my new build because of my impatience.
Edited by dragneel - 2/27/16 at 3:48pm
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post #348 of 1175
Quote:
Originally Posted by dragneel View Post


But as far as I can tell, the "lackluster GPU's" from AMD that people talk about were on launch relatively close to the competing card's performance for less money. I can't be the only one willing to sacrifice 5 fps to save $100. I mean, here in Aus, the GTX 960 was $100 more than the R9 280 and performs roughly the same. I don't see that as lackluster, I see that as pretty solid competition.

 

Particularly when that performance difference is resolved a month later. As someone who doesn't immediately hunker down for 30+ hours of "AAA GAME OF THE WEEK" each Saturday, I'd rarely if ever experience that fabled Day Zero Nvidia Advantage anyways.

     
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post #349 of 1175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clocknut View Post

I dont think brand loyalty play the biggest role in shifting the GPU market.

Majority of people buy product that works best right now, not for future proof. The recent shift is because of AMD's lackluster GPU nothing todo with Nvidia being better brand.

Based on my experiences, and the backlash I've faced eventhough I was right, I would have to disagree with you on this but from a differing perspective.

Individuals are loyal to their bragging rights. If you somehow diminish the halo surrounding a product they've purchased, they see it as an attack on themselves. On their ego.

I'd say that NVIDIA is a halo brand, like Apple, whose users buy their cards (in the majority a side from hardware enthusiasts) because it's NVIDIA and a GeForce. Not because it is empirically superior.

AMD users, though some exhibit this behavior and particularly in the CPU arena, tend to be more bang for your buck consumers.
Edited by Mahigan - 2/27/16 at 4:03pm
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post #350 of 1175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahigan View Post

Based on my experiences, and the backlash I've faced eventhough I was right, I would have to disagree with you on this but from a differing perspective.

Individuals are loyal to their bragging rights. If you somehow diminish the halo surrounding a product they've purchased, they see it as an attack on themselves. On their ego.

I'd say that NVIDIA is a halo brand, like Apple, whose users buy their cards (in the majority asise from hardware enthusiasts) because it's NVIDIA and a GeForce. Not because it is emoirically superior.

Gotta be honest though, with the amount of times I saw the "nvidia, the way its meant to be played" splash screens on my games when I was younger I'm really not surprised by the brand loyalty. It often made me question my choice in buying an ATi card. It almost felt like a brainwashing tactic and that's not meant to be an indictment of Nvidia, just how it felt to me personally every time I saw it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperZan View Post

Particularly when that performance difference is resolved a month later. As someone who doesn't immediately hunker down for 30+ hours of "AAA GAME OF THE WEEK" each Saturday, I'd rarely if ever experience that fabled Day Zero Nvidia Advantage anyways.
Exactly. tongue.gif
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