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post #181 of 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarathKasun View Post

Ive setup Linux honeypots. They get infected quite easily, and frighteningly quick. Faster than my windows ones TBQH.

Windows is rooted in a multi-user operating system as well, it is called Windows NT. Nothing really remains of Windows 9x. In Linux sysinit is god, system services require no user input and can wreck a system if they are malicious. Everything you said of Windows is true of Linux, the only difference is market share.

Thanks for your considered, but somewhat anecdotal response. I have to disagree if only in degree. While Win NT was derived (some say co-opted) from IBM's OS/2, which was an amazingly secure multi-user environment, one of the reasons for the split between IBM and MS was that MS was less concerned with both security and stability than IBM could abide since OS/2 at that time was designed for Mission Critical systems like Banking, Air Traffic Control and Enterprise systems where millions of dollars or even lives were at stake with any downtime. one example was that MS wanted to allow some software direct access to hardware bypassing the all-important pre-emptive safeguards of OS/2,

I lived in Va Beach (heavy Naval presence) at the time and recall that a battleship testing NT had to return to port after only a few hours basically with guns waving around aimlessly from corruption and instability caused by just such missteps. Furthermore, it is not at all comprehensive to assume nothing remains of the legacy of Win9X . Just because it no longer is but a shell on top of DOS does not mean the experience and mindset is gone. Modern versions are substantially more secure and vastly improved overall but don't forget that XP and Vista still did not have a proper division between Admin and User. Even Win7 still had/has some issues regarding permissions.

I, too, have routinely setup honeypots and, yes, they do see trouble commonly and quickly but they can't leave the honeypot. They get the honeypot exactly because of what a honeypot is, by design. I completely disagree that sysinit is the equivalent of The Registry, even if only because Registry is monolithic where one "key" fits all locks. The only "one key" that can do this in Linux is a rootkit which are far more easily detected and guarded against. Compartments are a Linux reality.

Your point about Market Share is a good one but I think you are thinking of MS dominance in the Home market. In the server, embedded, and supercomputer world the numbers are flipped with Linux enjoying a roughly 90% share and these are not anywhere near as often compromised as Windows systems, so it can't be only about "Security through Obscurity". Any budding script kiddie can plant and execute an app remotely in a Windows system for various reasons. If you are really fair in your assessment, I think you must agree that it is considerably harder to do in Linux.

To be absolutely clear I'm not trying to say that Linux is secure and Windows is a sieve. It is possible to make Windows quite secure and it is impossible to make any OpSys absolutely secure, but the fact remains that the multi-user legacy of Unix goes back many years more than Windows and it shows..
Edited by enorbet2 - 6/12/16 at 1:27pm
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post #182 of 241
Windows systems in the server sector are more often protected by better network hardware layer security, better network policies, and lack users randomly downloading apps. Market share is more about having more active targets, and there are vastly more active MS targets than Linux ones overall. Linux users tend to be more pro active regarding security as well.

The reality is that, as of now, the differences are pedantic at best. And none of your examples prove otherwise. The naval example, that is more likely bad coding than anything directly OS related. Seems to me that somebody did not do proper debugging and testing.

The legacy of Sys-V Unix is real, and its hurting Linux in desktop applications IMHO. It seems that its relative security has hurt development over the years, with devs clinging to old and broken subsystems like X.
Edited by KarathKasun - 6/12/16 at 6:55pm
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post #183 of 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarathKasun View Post

Windows systems in the server sector are more often protected by better network hardware layer security, better network policies, and lack users randomly downloading apps. Market share is more about having more active targets, and there are vastly more active MS targets than Linux ones overall. Linux users tend to be more pro active regarding security as well.

The reality is that, as of now, the differences are pedantic at best. And none of your examples prove otherwise. The naval example, that is more likely bad coding than anything directly OS related. Seems to me that somebody did not do proper debugging and testing.

The legacy of Sys-V Unix is real, and its hurting Linux in desktop applications IMHO. It seems that its relative security has hurt development over the years, with devs clinging to old and broken subsystems like X.

I don't get this. The server market from all the stats I see, is dominated by Linux NOT Windows, so I totally disagree that "Security through Obscurity" applies here, though it does make sense that, in general, those attracted to a an Admin oriented OpSys like Linux are likely to be more concerned with and proactive about security.

Re: The naval example - this showed that MS made it possible to write code that had direct access to hardware with no intervening preemptive halt. Such a thing is impossible in any serious OpSys. Code operates (or doesn't) within the rules of the OpSys. MS messed with the rules exactly as I pointed out because their breadwinner was and still is, Desktop Users and to some extent grew into Workstations making it a pita for Admins. Pedantic? Please show some supporting evidence beyond mere opinion.

Here's a sampling that supports my view (and we don't need to even consider Android which absolutely rules)

From Linux vs/ Windows in The Cloud
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInquirer_Article_Above 
The most striking finding was that cloud deployments on Linux are increasing at the expense of Windows. In 2011 the survey found that 65 percent of cloud deployments were on Linux and 45 percent were on Windows, while this year Linux was used for 79 percent of cloud deployments and Windows was used by 36 percent.

Also please note the "Public servers on the Internet" section from All OpSys Market Share Wiki states a major problem properly reporting Linux since
Quote:
Originally Posted by Note-from-above 
Note
Revenue comparisons often include "operating system software, other bundled software"[119] and are not appropriate for usage comparison as the Linux operating system doesn't cost anything (including "other bundled software"), except if optionally using commercial distributions such as Red Hat (in that case, cost of software for all software bundled with hardware has to be known for all operating systems involved, and subtracted). In cases where no-cost Linux is used, such comparisons underestimate Linux server popularity and overestimate other proprietary operating systems such as Windows.

Yet even given this bias and excluding Android, Linux enjoys 67.9% while all versions of Windows shares 32.3%. So much for Market Share and "bad code". I think this at least qualifies as "examples that prove otherwise" to answer your "question".. :whistle.gif

Your last sentence I think truly reveals both your area of expertise and bias. "Old and broken" - seriously? rolleyes.gif

Although I agree that X is overly complicated and something of a "patchwork quilt", what do you find you cannot do even in X ? As bad as one can stretch to say it is or may be, it still competes handily with Windows which has put a very large portion of it's funding into glitz and glamour. If we are to go off the server topic and deal with Desktops where Windows does indeed have a masterful stranglehold, the 2 biggest reasons for that are (in the past) Office and (in the present) DirectX. These days the single most quoted complaint from Desktop Users is Gaming and it's lockdown by DirectX. Linux has had to play catch up since 2004 when OpenGL began to lose it's dominance in Gaming. That is only now beginning to change thanks to Gabe Newell.

Let's never forget that besides positive development MS spends vast sums on thwarting competition, even when it hurts them some. Example - a number of governments complained and a few stopped using Office because they cannot have documents required to last decades and longer, impossible to read in a few short years due to MS's moving target "dancing" . Linux does none of that.except in response to Windows changes. Every document, including backups, I wrote in 2000 is still readable/usable in 2016. I cannot say the same for even my Win2K install which may well be the pinnacle MS ever reached.. Win7? Even previous backups are screwed let alone Word docs.

Please note that I am not attacking you personally but if you come into a Linux House preaching Windows and denigrating Linux, you'd better have your facts straight. I started working with home computers in 1981 with a ZX80 and my background with servers began professionally in 1993 and I ran systems of 200 workstations by 1994 that ran for years without one unscheduled reboot. I think I have a a fairly wide area of experience to draw from. How 'bout you?
Edited by enorbet2 - 6/13/16 at 3:43pm
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post #184 of 241
MS has been pushing Linux in the cloud too, IIRC Ubuntu has been offered on Azure since inception and then RHEL/CentOS and now even BSD. At first it was unsupported but now you can get official MS support for your Linux system on Azure.

As far as security goes, I'd rather stick with Linux for the simple fact that most of the software is open source and because there is an ocean of awesome security-enhancing software available to bolster defenses, plus tools to help you write your own, and it's all open-source and well-documented. All in all more than can be said for the Windows experience in regards to security.
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post #185 of 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post

I don't get this. The server market from all the stats I see, is dominated by Linux NOT Windows, so I totally disagree that "Security through Obscurity" applies here, though it does make sense that, in general, those attracted to a an Admin oriented OpSys like Linux are likely to be more concerned with and proactive about security.

Re: The naval example - this showed that MS made it possible to write code that had direct access to hardware with no intervening preemptive halt. Such a thing is impossible in any serious OpSys. Code operates (or doesn't) within the rules of the OpSys. MS messed with the rules exactly as I pointed out because their breadwinner was and still is, Desktop Users and to some extent grew into Workstations making it a pita for Admins. Pedantic? Please show some supporting evidence beyond mere opinion.

Did you not read where this thread is about DESKTOP Linux? Unless this thread is now talking about setting up a Linux server...

If you include ALL x86 and x86-64 systems (excluding individual nodes in clusters/data centers), Windows has vastly more market share anyway. And home users are also likely to have the worst security practices. Windows gets a bad rap in the most part from people who are terrible at securing their computer. I don't use AV in Windows, yet stand alone scans never turn anything up. Had several Windows servers facing the public internet, no problems. Same for my Linux servers.

But this thread, as I said, is not about servers.
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post #186 of 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post

Only partly true. Everything in Windows is centralized and The Registry is God. It is designed so that things just run with the least interference or user intervention but that is a double-edged sword that also makes malware easy to both insert and run, often extremely early in the boot process which allows them to hide.
I find it's much worse in Windows. Sure, you can make it run with no user intervention, but there are so many people who know just enough about their Windows PC's to be dangerous--and they are. Remember my friend that I provided a new Linux computer to as a birthday gift? I was back in Raleigh this past weekend and visited her. One of the reasons for switching her to Linux was because she doesn't know a lot about how computers work under the hood, and she'll admittedly click on stuff, not knowing any better, and end up with malware. But her new computer ran just as well on Saturday as it did when I took it there a month ago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post

(and we don't need to even consider Android which absolutely rules)
Can't agree with you there. Android is a kludge. It's improved over the years, but every time I deal with it for any length of time, I feel like I'm using the Windows 9x of a new generation, only instead of an operating environment kludged on top of DOS, this is one kludged on top of a Linux kernel. I'd rather take a sledgehammer to a cheap Android device than use one.
Quote:
Although I agree that X is overly complicated and something of a "patchwork quilt", what do you find you cannot do even in X ? As bad as one can stretch to say it is or may be, it still competes handily with Windows which has put a very large portion of it's funding into glitz and glamour.
And somehow, X11 has managed to work since the 1980s, unlike Windows which had to rework GDI several times until they couldn't anymore (or at least didn't want to, so they could force you to upgrade from XP to use DX10), and then they introduced the DWM in the NT6 kernel.
Quote:
Example - a number of governments complained and a few stopped using Office because they cannot have documents required to last decades and longer, impossible to read in a few short years due to MS's moving target "dancing" . Linux does none of that.except in response to Windows changes. Every document, including backups, I wrote in 2000 is still readable/usable in 2016. I cannot say the same for even my Win2K install which may well be the pinnacle MS ever reached.. Win7? Even previous backups are screwed let alone Word docs.
Funny, isn't it? I have documents I wrote in Word 2.0 back in the 1990s, and I can't open them in any version of Word since '03 SP3 without hacking the registry, but I can open them in Linux. What's even more ridiculous is that I'd rather use Word 2.0 or Word 97 today than any of the newer versions. When Win 7 broke Word 97, I switched to Libre and never looked back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarathKasun View Post

Windows gets a bad rap in the most part from people who are terrible at securing their computer. I don't use AV in Windows, yet stand alone scans never turn anything up. Had several Windows servers facing the public internet, no problems. Same for my Linux servers.
You're right, but Windows does make it super-easy for people who are terrible at securing their computer to mess it up. In fairness, I don't know if there's a whole lot more they can do. You've got to keep it as simple as possible if you're in the business of selling operating systems to the average user.

It's not that hard to avoid getting a virus in Windows. The last time I had a Windows virus, Bill Clinton was President. But most people just don't care to learn or follow safe computing practices.
     
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post #187 of 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarathKasun View Post

Did you not read where this thread is about DESKTOP Linux? Unless this thread is now talking about setting up a Linux server...

But this thread, as I said, is not about servers.

Actually this thread is about several questions asked about Windows and Linux in general and you brought up the concept that Windows is (and it seems, by default) just as secure as Linux, that Linux only seems more secure through it' obscurity. and that any suggestions that Linux is in fact superior is pedantic ignoring that

1) Malware is more difficult to insert in Linux than Windows
2) It is extremely difficult to get Malware to run in Linux, while quite easy in Windows, largely due to Centralization vs/ Compartmentalization, but not disregarding the oddball legacy standalone standards of permissions in Windows, now morphed into MS control but with an added promiscuity that constitutes a considerable vulnerability.. Just how vulnerable we shall see after Win10 gets dominance.
3) Windows has almost never qualified for Mission Critical work, while Linux routinely does..

You can believe what you like, but to cast Windows at anything remotely like default level as just as secure as Linux, for ANY reason, is just ignoring many basic facts.

Can Windows be reasonably secure? Of course. Is it as secure as Linux is or can be? Of course not.
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post #188 of 241
ping jsc1973 - My comment about "android rules" was not meant to include quality. It is a kludge as you have pointed out. My point was simply about it's market share and resulting exposure in reference to the claim that Linux's security was all due to obscurity. Most casual users, and that includes Mac as well as Windows disproportionately, have no clue as to how much Linux dominates the server, smartphone, and supercomputer markets which means how much it is exposed..If Linux was inherently only as secure as Windows there would be a lot more penetrations. Thankfully, that isn't so.
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post #189 of 241
Don't most routers also use some embedded version?
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post #190 of 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by cones View Post

Don't most routers also use some embedded version?

It is becoming more common than it used to be from what I understand. I think a lot of that has to do with more powerful ARM processors making routers generally more capable computers.
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