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post #2051 of 2265
I don't know guys. Overwatch is a lot of fun for me. The only other games I've played as much as this game are Gears of War and Battlefield 4. Both were ruined, Gears when Judgment and 4 were screwed up in various ways and Battlefield 4 when they removed firing lock on weapons from vehicles. I really hope they don't ruin Overwatch with updates and changes that they think are fixes but actually ruin the game.

I have faith in Blizzard, though, much more than Epic or EA.
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post #2052 of 2265
If the same characters get played all the time, it will make the game stale. Dive comp was getting extremely boring, and that's coming from a guy who mains D'Va. They're trying to move people away from the mentality of "you must pick these healers and these dps and these tanks or you're throwing". You see it all the time at lower ranks. People complaining about Junkrat or Torbjorn because they aren't not 'meta' enough.

You watch Grandmasters play and they pick some weird comps and still make it work. Seen quite a few games where they have used a Sombra as a healer, just because she can hack health packs and be so useful with her ult. But no, at lower ranks, you try that and people will throw, because if they don't have a pocket Mercy, the game is apparently an insta-loss.
post #2053 of 2265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paradigm84 View Post

If the same characters get played all the time, it will make the game stale. Dive comp was getting extremely boring, and that's coming from a guy who mains D'Va. They're trying to move people away from the mentality of "you must pick these healers and these dps and these tanks or you're throwing". You see it all the time at lower ranks. People complaining about Junkrat or Torbjorn because they aren't not 'meta' enough.

You watch Grandmasters play and they pick some weird comps and still make it work. Seen quite a few games where they have used a Sombra as a healer, just because she can hack health packs and be so useful with her ult. But no, at lower ranks, you try that and people will throw, because if they don't have a pocket Mercy, the game is apparently an insta-loss.

You can't fix this problem unless you make every character a low skill floor character. You can't watch a a GM game and go, "well at GM they did this, so we can do that to." It doesn't work that way.

Just because Kephrii can run widow and win doesn't mean bronze through masters players can. He has a >20% crit percentage, of course he can win with widow. Same goes for Ana vs Mercy, up until about diamond (thought I've seen very competent Ana players in gold and plat), Mercy is just the better pick as a healer because she more consistent if you can't hit your shots.

Before the buffs, Junkrat was a high skill floor character, despite a lot of low elo players picking him because they felt effective spamming. He required meticulous management of cooldowns and was very hard to be consistent with. Now they've lowere his skill floor by give him either an extra getaway free card with the extra mine or an extra chance to frag out without aiming too much.

So to directly respond to your post, while I agree that more characters need to be picked to keep the meta fresh, the only way that will happen is if they introduce more characters or they make every character easy to play.
post #2054 of 2265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paradigm84 View Post

If the same characters get played all the time, it will make the game stale. Dive comp was getting extremely boring, and that's coming from a guy who mains D'Va. They're trying to move people away from the mentality of "you must pick these healers and these dps and these tanks or you're throwing". You see it all the time at lower ranks. People complaining about Junkrat or Torbjorn because they aren't not 'meta' enough.

You watch Grandmasters play and they pick some weird comps and still make it work. Seen quite a few games where they have used a Sombra as a healer, just because she can hack health packs and be so useful with her ult. But no, at lower ranks, you try that and people will throw, because if they don't have a pocket Mercy, the game is apparently an insta-loss.

Pros even get away with weird comps. I've won several 5 DPS + Lucio games in Diamond level too... even a 6dps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWizardMan View Post

You can't fix this problem unless you make every character a low skill floor character. You can't watch a a GM game and go, "well at GM they did this, so we can do that to." It doesn't work that way.

It absolutely does work this way, and I think this is one of the biggest misconceptions in Overwatch. You don't need to play that character at a GM level to use it like the GM did. You just need to play it at a similar level relative to your rank. If I played a decent widow for Gold, I could absolutely use widow in the same places the GM does, and be overall similarly effective.
Quote:
Just because Kephrii can run widow and win doesn't mean bronze through masters players can. He has a >20% crit percentage, of course he can win with widow. Same goes for Ana vs Mercy, up until about diamond (thought I've seen very competent Ana players in gold and plat), Mercy is just the better pick as a healer because she more consistent if you can't hit your shots.

Before the buffs, Junkrat was a high skill floor character, despite a lot of low elo players picking him because they felt effective spamming. He required meticulous management of cooldowns and was very hard to be consistent with. Now they've lowere his skill floor by give him either an extra getaway free card with the extra mine or an extra chance to frag out without aiming too much.

So to directly respond to your post, while I agree that more characters need to be picked to keep the meta fresh, the only way that will happen is if they introduce more characters or they make every character easy to play.

Last time I checked, Ana has a negative win % even in Grandmaster tongue.gif. Ana can still work in Silver or whatever though, the player just needs to put enough time on her to understand her abilities fully.

To keep the meta fresh all they need to do is keep making changes- the player base will figure out the optimal strats for the current patch, and it'll tend to be different. I think reworking characters is needed- you can't just leave characters that are essentially unpickable alone. The Junkrat rework was excellent, he is pickable vs other DPS options now, but in no way is he a "must pick".
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post #2055 of 2265
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWizardMan View Post

You can't fix this problem unless you make every character a low skill floor character. You can't watch a a GM game and go, "well at GM they did this, so we can do that to." It doesn't work that way.

Just because Kephrii can run widow and win doesn't mean bronze through masters players can. He has a >20% crit percentage, of course he can win with widow. Same goes for Ana vs Mercy, up until about diamond (thought I've seen very competent Ana players in gold and plat), Mercy is just the better pick as a healer because she more consistent if you can't hit your shots.

Before the buffs, Junkrat was a high skill floor character, despite a lot of low elo players picking him because they felt effective spamming. He required meticulous management of cooldowns and was very hard to be consistent with. Now they've lowere his skill floor by give him either an extra getaway free card with the extra mine or an extra chance to frag out without aiming too much.

So to directly respond to your post, while I agree that more characters need to be picked to keep the meta fresh, the only way that will happen is if they introduce more characters or they make every character easy to play.

To that same point though, thinking that what's meta for super high level competitive overwatch is going to translate to the same success at lower ranks is wrong. People play Heros they suck at, or force others to do the same so that they can fit into a meta comp. If you play bad, it doesn't matter what comp you have, you will lose.

I can understand trying to get better at other characters, but i think that people who solely fill and really only excel at using one or two characters will find less success in this game in terms of climbing ranks.

If you want to climb big ranks and insist on filling, master a dps, a tank, and a healer. Don't stray from them unless it's a last resort.
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post #2056 of 2265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultracarpet View Post


If you want to climb big ranks and insist on filling, master a dps, a tank, and a healer. Don't stray from them unless it's a last resort.

The compounding problem with this is the performance based SR- when you fill it might be what the team needs, and be more important then you being a master at the hero (say switching off your main reaper to 76 for phara)... but since you'll probably perform worse then a 76 main/one trick, you will gain less SR for a win, and lose more for a loss.

I think the performance based SR system is the most frustrating thing for me. I've gotten to master with both soldier 76 and Torbjorn solo, and my main is stuck at very low diamond by playing with others (which I don't mind). However, the frustrating thing is I played every single game last season with the same person (who had no games without me either), and due to "performance based SR" it gave him over 200 more SR by the end of the season. If they were really 200 SR better, we'd probably be floating around masters.
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post #2057 of 2265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy9000 View Post

It absolutely does work this way, and I think this is one of the biggest misconceptions in Overwatch. You don't need to play that character at a GM level to use it like the GM did. You just need to play it at a similar level relative to your rank. If I played a decent widow for Gold, I could absolutely use widow in the same places the GM does, and be overall similarly effective.
Last time I checked, Ana has a negative win % even in Grandmaster tongue.gif. Ana can still work in Silver or whatever though, the player just needs to put enough time on her to understand her abilities fully.
I disagree, but not because of what you think. Yes, you can do the things GMs do, and it will help your game. The problem is, at lower levels, you would contribute a lot more off those high skill floor characters, like widow. Even if you are good for your level.
post #2058 of 2265
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWizardMan View Post


You can't fix this problem unless you make every character a low skill floor character. You can't watch a a GM game and go, "well at GM they did this, so we can do that to." It doesn't work that way.

 

I get what you're trying to say, but I think most folks misunderstood you. You're right that odd stuff tends to work at higher SR levels - because the players up there are simply better at what they do. At lower SR levels, things like triple DPS or attack Torb don't work not because it's not 'meta,' but rather because the people down there don't have the skill to play those heroes well.

 

I've commented on that after watching pros and streamers: People in Top 500 just play who they want to and nobody even mentions it during the pre-game. Nobody is automatically asking the Widow to switch or to drop the Symmetra because they all trust each other to play well enough to win. Well, and to be smart enough to switch if they need to counter the other team. Hell, look at what South Korea did during the last round of the Overwatch World Cup. They played off-meta just so they didn't give away their true strategy for the finals. There was also a bit of shaming the other teams there, too, because they know they were good enough that they would win no matter what.

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post #2059 of 2265
Quote:
Originally Posted by kremtok View Post

I get what you're trying to say, but I think most folks misunderstood you. You're right that odd stuff tends to work at higher SR levels - because the players up there are simply better at what they do. At lower SR levels, things like triple DPS or attack Torb don't work not because it's not 'meta,' but rather because the people down there don't have the skill to play those heroes well.

Odd stuff should work at any SR level, as long as the person playing is competent on that hero for their SR range. This is mainly done by hours played- if a significant factor in their silver rank is that they main Hanzo, then their Hanzo is going be be generally as effective DPS wise as a Silver 76 main. Would that players time have been better spent getting good with a more stable hero? Perhaps, but then they would be a higher rank and not in those games anymore, so it's not really relevant.

So overall I would say your time might be better spent with learning a "meta" hero, but if you really like/ have an affinity for another hero you can make it work at any rank by putting the time in to it. My friend recently climbed out of silver by switching from a Rein main to a Hanzo main, after watching Wraxu and wanting to play Hanzo well like that.
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post #2060 of 2265
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy9000 View Post

Odd stuff should work at any SR level, as long as the person playing is competent on that hero for their SR range. This is mainly done by hours played- if a significant factor in their silver rank is that they main Hanzo, then their Hanzo is going be be generally as effective DPS wise as a Silver 76 main. Would that players time have been better spent getting good with a more stable hero? Perhaps, but then they would be a higher rank and not in those games anymore, so it's not really relevant.

So overall I would say your time might be better spent with learning a "meta" hero, but if you really like/ have an affinity for another hero you can make it work at any rank by putting the time in to it. My friend recently climbed out of silver by switching from a Rein main to a Hanzo main, after watching Wraxu and wanting to play Hanzo well like that.

Your first sentence is exactly my point. You can pick any hero so long as you're good at him / her. If you pick a 'meta' hero just to fill and you do terrible, then it does neither you nor your team any good.

I'd also argue that time played isn't necessarily indicative of skill. Even win percentage doesn't tell a clear story, and KDR or elims per life doesn't really show how much of a team player you are. Really the only relevant statistic is the actual SR.
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