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[MIT] A Connection between Cell Phones and Cancer Has Been Found - Page 7  

post #61 of 88
R.I.P. Kevin Gates.
post #62 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrews2547 View Post

If you're going to get cancer from your phone because it's 2-3 feet away from you, you're going to get cancer from the cellphone towers whether you have a phone or not. 2-3 feet away is too far for it do any damage. You get more radiation exposure from the ground your house is built on (assuming you live in a granite rich area) than you would if your phone was 2-3 feet away from you.
You're being way too authoritative about that.

Not all radiation sources are equal, and not all radiation is equal.

It's a nice story and I wish it were true, but denial doesn't fix this problem. Assumptions won't cut it, and denial certainly shouldn't be dangled in front of people as a solution because we need more study on this. The government has been doing absolutely nothing to explore this because they don't want it to be true, either. Getting funding for studies like these is nearly impossible. People need to start demanding it.
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post #63 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mookster View Post

You're being way too authoritative about that.

Not all radiation sources are equal, and not all radiation is equal.

It's a nice story and I wish it were true, but denial doesn't fix this problem. Assumptions won't cut it, and denial certainly shouldn't be dangled in front of people as a solution because we need more study on this. The government has been doing absolutely nothing to explore this because they don't want it to be true, either. Getting funding for studies like these is nearly impossible. People need to start demanding it.

From an article on the history of microwave use...

"Eleanor R. Adair conducted microwave health research by exposing herself, animals and humans to microwave levels that made them feel warm or even start to sweat and feel quite uncomfortable. She found no adverse health effects other than heat."

Those levels are probably in the 100w or higher range. A far cry from the 500mw or less coming from your cellphone.
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post #64 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarathKasun View Post

From an article on the history of microwave use...

"Eleanor R. Adair conducted microwave health research by exposing herself, animals and humans to microwave levels that made them feel warm or even start to sweat and feel quite uncomfortable. She found no adverse health effects other than heat."

Those levels are probably in the 100w or higher range. A far cry from the 500mw or less coming from your cellphone.
You don't find what you're not looking for.

We don't even know what type of conditions within the body lend to the prominence of cancer development. We know that certain materials within the body, in certain quantities, can increase the chance of cancer. We know a few circumstances that create statistical probabilities, but we have very little knowledge outside of that.

We understand that the cell-division process is incredibly complex and exists in a realm where you'd have trouble discerning whether it can be called biology, or just physics. identifying the cause of cancer mutations is currently beyond us, other than to use the brute force method investigative analysis.

This, Eleanor R. Adair, did very little in the way of a good investigative analysis. The communication between cells at that level involves some very subtle processes that we don't fully understand yet, but they are seen to involve the same types of informal radiowave communications that we use today. Blasting your body with powerful non-informal radiowaves for 45 minute intervals might be fine. You can probably stand back and say "I'm alive" and you can probably live for another 30 years and say "I'm still alive", but it's hardly a conclusive study.

It's important to recognize the difference between that kind of study, and the kind of study we're performing on the population today. There is a difference.

We need to revisit the issue. We're seeing statistics building up that show a strong case for cellphones, specifically, being a potential cause of cancer. We shouldn't just say "we like cellphones and we're afraid of the possibility, so we should just accept the incomplete conclusion we made 40 years ago with one study concerning one type of radiowave in one type of environment."

Cell division is more unique than that. Cancer creation is more complex than that. And when it comes to cell phones, we're dealing with a very particular form of radiation that our micro-biology could be sensitive to. We don't know. We have a lead. We should follow it without a bias, regardless of what it would mean if there does turn out to be a connection.
Edited by Mookster - 5/28/16 at 3:35pm
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post #65 of 88
But, the radiation from a phone is not the kind that can harm DNA. Thiught this was settled long ago...
 
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post #66 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prophet4NO1 View Post

But, the radiation from a phone is not the kind that can harm DNA. Thiught this was settled long ago...
Measuring the harm that radiation can do to DNA is a pretty damn tough process. The circumstances that lend to the creation of cancer are plentiful and presumably interdependent.

We know that electromagentic waves have a much larger part in our microbiological communication than we once thought. In the 1970's, we didn't know it had any part in our microbiology. Today, we know very little, but we at least know that it matters.

That leaves us in a situation where we can't rule out the possibility of informal waves impacting our microbiology. When it comes to something like cancer, we're dealing with a situation where modern science can't identify an uptick in the birthing of cancerous cells until your immune system finally fails to combat the growth of it. Once cancer gets on a run-away, you "have cancer".

When it comes to substances that cause cancer, it's easy. Drop the substance in, and watch the cancer grow. When it comes to interrupting or interfering in the electromagnetic communication that seems to be going on at a microbiological level that we don't fully understand, it's hard to say what causes that. If our microbiology is using radio communication, it's certainly informal and there must be a way for our cells to discern between what's an informal wave and what's not, because we're always being bombarded by these waves.

With modern communication, we're sending informal waves. We're sending across many different bands. They're not natural noises made by the universe, they're distinguishable. Bombard your cells with the randomness of informal types of radio communication, over your entire life, and there might just be a difference. Considering just how little we know about microbiological use of electromagnetic communication, we can't even begin create an intelligent theory. This means the scientific community will quickly squelch anyone raising that concern, and in some ways that's understandable. You don't want the holy name of "science" to be tarnished by demanding action on incomplete work. However, we can acknowledge that this is a difference between informal and non-informal waves, and at least fathom that our modern communication could interfere with our biological communication.

There might not be a strong scientific basis for thinking that our vast wireless networks can interfere with our biology, but there is some basis. The kind of information that has substance, is the classical investigative kind. If we have a strong statistical foundation for a possible link between cell phones and cancer, we should pursue it. We can't just reject it because our incomplete understanding of biology doesn't include a disclaimer to tell us about it.
Edited by Mookster - 5/28/16 at 4:25pm
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post #67 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mookster View Post

You don't find what you're not looking for.

We don't even know what type of conditions within the body lend to the prominence of cancer development. We know that certain materials within the body, in certain quantities, can increase the chance of cancer. We know a few circumstances that create statistical probabilities, but we have very little knowledge outside of that.

We understand that the cell-division process is incredibly complex and exists in a realm where you'd have trouble discerning whether it can be called biology, or just physics. identifying the cause of cancer mutations is currently beyond us, other than to use the brute force method investigative analysis.

This, Eleanor R. Adair, did very little in the way of a good investigative analysis. The communication between cells at that level involves some very subtle processes that we don't fully understand yet, but they are seen to involve the same types of informal radiowave communications that we use today. Blasting your body with powerful non-informal radiowaves for 45 minute intervals might be fine. You can probably stand back and say "I'm alive" and you can probably live for another 30 years and say "I'm still alive", but it's hardly a conclusive study.

It's important to recognize the difference between that kind of study, and the kind of study we're performing on the population today. There is a difference.

We need to revisit the issue. We're seeing statistics building up that show a strong case for cellphones, specifically, being a potential cause of cancer. We shouldn't just say "we like cellphones and we're afraid of the possibility, so we should just accept the incomplete conclusion we made 40 years ago with one study concerning one type of radiowave in one type of environment."


Cell division is more unique than that. Cancer creation is more complex than that. And when it comes to cell phones, we're dealing with a very particular form of radiation that our micro-biology could be sensitive to. We don't know. We have a lead. We should follow it without a bias, regardless of what it would mean if there does turn out to be a connection.

You have to initiate research when you discover more variables, I don't argue that.

The problem is when people initiate the same research with the same variables with a different opinion. The opinion tends to taint the conclusion drawn from the results. This study brings nothing particularly new to the table. The subjects being exposed living longer is not studied, and living longer generates a higher risk cancer developing. Thats what they selected to take away from the research, exposure = cancer. Not longer life span = more cancer.

In reality, we need to figure out why the median life span increased.
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post #68 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarathKasun View Post

You have to initiate research when you discover more variables, I don't argue that.

The problem is when people initiate the same research with the same variables with a different opinion. The opinion tends to taint the conclusion drawn from the results. This study brings nothing particularly new to the table. The subjects being exposed living longer is not studied, and living longer generates a higher risk cancer developing. Thats what they selected to take away from the research, exposure = cancer. Not longer life span = more cancer.

In reality, we need to figure out why the median life span increased.
I don't know if that's what we need.

What we need are unbiased studies concerning the public health. We need the committees who control those studies to remain unbiased, which means we need the funding to remain unbiased. Once upon a time, government was capable of providing that kind of funding, but that method has a fat chance in hell these days. Government is a mature ecosystem, these days, and there are too many predators lurking in that ecosystem to walk through it with a big fat steak. Some people were convinced to transfer funding to tax exempt foundations to solve this problem, but tax exempts are very often the exact same type of predators that they were supposedly trying to avoid so you tell me.

I have no illusions when it comes to how investors, the scientific community, and the media produce a study that has the legs to get to me. This one, from MIT, hardly has legs. We basically need to do the walking for it, which means understanding a bit about why it may be a valid study in the first place. It does seem to have some good people and sound evidence behind it, but it's lacking real media attention and the kind of investment that'll turn it into a real study and get it the kind of media attention that it needs. That simply won't happen. If it does, you can guess what industries will begin dumping billions into studies that have "better" experts, louder messages, lobbying, and whatever other mechanisms exist these days to get what you want.

How the study should be performed? I have some ideas, but I won't pretend I know. I do know how often I find blatantly bad "studies" being touted as irrefutable evidence for no good reason.
I know finding the right way to get real scientific information doesn't start with having faith in peoples' integrity, or the integrity of our particular system of governance. That part takes steady, unwavering attention from everyone involved; and we have far less of that than we've ever had in the past.
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post #69 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by caenlen View Post

Just don't keep your cell phone in your pocket is my only advice, at least if you want children, dem sperm cell counts yo

Meh. I have serious doubts. But I'm not a paranoid mess.
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post #70 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by hollowtek View Post

Time to cancer-free my cell phone with some spf 140 and free radical rich antioxidants.

I have some great "for phones" SPF 140, only $35 a bottle. biggrin.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mookster View Post

I don't know if that's what we need.

What we need are unbiased studies concerning the public health. We need the committees who control those studies to remain unbiased, which means we need the funding to remain unbiased. Once upon a time, government was capable of providing that kind of funding, but that method has a fat chance in hell these days. Government is a mature ecosystem, these days, and there are too many predators lurking in that ecosystem to walk through it with a big fat steak. Some people were convinced to transfer funding to tax exempt foundations to solve this problem, but tax exempts are very often the exact same type of predators that they were supposedly trying to avoid so you tell me.

I have no illusions when it comes to how investors, the scientific community, and the media produce a study that has the legs to get to me. This one, from MIT, hardly has legs. We basically need to do the walking for it, which means understanding a bit about why it may be a valid study in the first place. It does seem to have some good people and sound evidence behind it, but it's lacking real media attention and the kind of investment that'll turn it into a real study and get it the kind of media attention that it needs. That simply won't happen. If it does, you can guess what industries will begin dumping billions into studies that have "better" experts, louder messages, lobbying, and whatever other mechanisms exist these days to get what you want.

How the study should be performed? I have some ideas, but I won't pretend I know. I do know how often I find blatantly bad "studies" being touted as irrefutable evidence for no good reason.
I know finding the right way to get real scientific information doesn't start with having faith in peoples' integrity, or the integrity of our particular system of governance. That part takes steady, unwavering attention from everyone involved; and we have far less of that than we've ever had in the past.

It sounds like you wouldn't believe anything except a positive result, if a study turns up nothing you say it was biased or flawed but if it says there is a connection you say finally there is a real study we need to publicize. Unbiased has to work both ways.

There have been many studies around this topic, they usually have something wrong with them and are too small, but they also usually don't find any connection. No one has ever suggested a mechanism either which is usually required before scientists are absolutely convinced it isn't a flawed study. Statistical correlation without actual causation can sometimes lead to very incorrect conclusions.

Why did you ignore or gloss over the fact that in this study the group exposed to cell phone radiation has a longer median life span?

Edit: I agree that we really need unbiased research funding, and it is seriously lacking. I don't think we need it in order to prove cell phones cause cancer but to do all the kinds of basic research and safety studies short-term profit seeking corporations do not fund.
Edited by Asmodian - 5/28/16 at 11:16pm
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Samsung 950 Pro M.2 512GB HGST NAS 4TB x8 - 21.8TB RAID6 Western Digital Black 4TB Samsung SH-S183L 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
Noctua NH-D15 Windows 10 Pro Asus VG278H WASD "CODE" Keyboard 
PowerCaseMouseOther
SeaSonic Platinum-1000 DIYPC Alpha-GT3 Logitech G700s Mellanox ConnectX-3 MCX312A-XCBT 10 GbE Adapter 
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Adaptec RAID 71605 
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Intel i9-7900X @ 4.7GHz Asus ROG Rampage VI Apex Titan X (Pascal) @ 2.05GHz 32GB DDR4 4000-17-17-17-37 CR1 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
480GB - Intel Optane 900P 2TB - Samsung 960 Pro EK Monoblock + GPU + 560 Rad Windows 10 Pro x64 
MonitorMonitorMonitorKeyboard
Acer XB270HU bprz HTC Vive LG OLED55C7P Logitech G810 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Seasonic PRIME 1200 Platinum Old Marble Slab Logitech G900 Logitech G440 
AudioAudioOther
Sennheiser HD 600 Creative SoundBlasterX AE-5 Mellanox ConnectX-3 MCX312A-XCBT 10 GbE Adapter 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7-5960X @ 4.2GHz Asus Rampage 5 Extreme Nvidia GeForce GT 545 32GB DDR4 (2400-12-12-12-28-1T) 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
Samsung 950 Pro M.2 512GB HGST NAS 4TB x8 - 21.8TB RAID6 Western Digital Black 4TB Samsung SH-S183L 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
Noctua NH-D15 Windows 10 Pro Asus VG278H WASD "CODE" Keyboard 
PowerCaseMouseOther
SeaSonic Platinum-1000 DIYPC Alpha-GT3 Logitech G700s Mellanox ConnectX-3 MCX312A-XCBT 10 GbE Adapter 
Other
Adaptec RAID 71605 
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Technology and Science News › [MIT] A Connection between Cell Phones and Cancer Has Been Found