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post #11 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Chicken View Post

Well, I WAS getting some decent work done until you posted that link. There goes about 10 hours of my life I'm never getting back. Great information I had never seen before. Thanks.

Sorry about your work, my bad biggrin.gif
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post #12 of 31
Apologies for missing this thread, I was at an out of state wedding for the last few days (and managed to get sick on the way home). Looks like you already have a ton of great info and reading material, but it is important to realize one important difference with cooling TECs vs CPUs as you start reaching the thermal limits of your cooling. This is just a rough explanation that won't be too scientific, just for the sake of explanation.

When an air cooler is on a CPU, it is very straight forward - the CPU gets hot, the TIM transfers it through the base and any heatpipes it may have, while the airflow over the fins dissipates that heat. As the CPU gets hotter, the heatsink in turn gets hotter, which can be countered by a bigger heatsink to hold more of the CPU heat or a higher CFM fan to dissapate it quicker. Once you reach a heatsinks "limits" the temps climb, but you can theoretically greatly increase that heatsinks potential by just throwing more CFM at it...the CPU will run hotter, but the heatsink will still be cooling it. Very simple smile.gif.

On a TEC though, keep in mind they work off a Delta - now you are not only worried about just the wattage you have to cool, but the temperature you have to attain to keep it cool. A massive TEC with a 20c delta at 200w isn't much help if your hot side is 40c...you will theoretically be using tons of electricity to cool 300-350+ watts(TEC + CPU) and releasing a bunch of heat to only be maybe 5c colder then a normal waterblock. As an example with the same heatsink mentioned above as it gets overloaded, your hotside of the TEC increases in temperature too. That in turn raises your cold side - since, again, TECs work on a hot side vs cold side temp relationship - and the delta between the hot and cold side shrinks as the heatload increases. As the delta shrinks, your CPU is now getting much hotter much faster(vs a much slower increase on a heatsink on a CPU), and your TEC is less and less worthwhile - and just throwing more CFM at the fins on the hot side aren't enough to cool the heatsink, hot side, two layers of TIM, and the cold side to allow the delta to be big enough to be worthwhile. Since a waterloop can hold a LOT more watts of heat at a reasonable temperature then an air cooler, you can now see why an air cooler is not very feasible to use on a direct die setup.

Even worse, you eventually stall the TEC and now it can't keep a delta at all. On a normal heatsink+cpu this just leads to higher then wanted temps that you can fight with more powerful fans, but with a TEC now your cold side is no longer cold and you actually have an insulator between the CPU and the heatsink...CPU will now run hotter then if you didn't have the TEC at all!

Now, you can still use an air cooler with a TEC setup...but it would be on multiple smaller, lower powered TECs chained in series and used as chillers to cool the water in a loop. A user here has a practical home setup using 2-3 smaller TECs (I believe two are on all the time and the third kicks on at a certain temp as a booster) being cooled by TRUEs on modded waterblock chillers. A nice insulated reservoir to "eat up" load spikes without having to crank the extra TEC all the time can help in a normal use rig to make the most out of smaller TECs that otherwise would start overloading after extended use (at the cost of a longer start up time before reaching desired coolant temps).



...That post ended up longer then I expected, but I hope it helped. thumb.gif
Edited by Puck - 5/30/16 at 4:08pm
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post #13 of 31
Thread Starter 
Well you keep referencing water but as i should on anandtech air heatsink is nearly the same as the best water AIO, which is just like a custom water loop.

I am just going to have to test this because i think everyone is so stuck in their ways they can;t even read data logically.
post #14 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by HOPELESSLYFAITH View Post

Well you keep referencing water but as i should on anandtech air heatsink is nearly the same as the best water AIO, which is just like a custom water loop.

I am just going to have to test this because i think everyone is so stuck in their ways they can;t even read data logically.
please do test it, that is the whole point of doing things on your own, and it is the best way to learn.
with that said, it can also be the most disappointing way to learn, when things don't work out quite the way you had hoped they would.
I really think that there just trying to help.
here is a little encouraging insight about the H100i as well as most AOI systems for that matter, they all suffer from the same issue, and that is a low flow rate, this is a direct result of the small water pumps used to move the water through the system. so, a good upgrade for any AOI system with will actually increase its performance, is getting a better water pump for the system.(like a D5 or a DDT pump)
http://www.overclock.net/t/1573189/serial-vs-parallel-9-6lpm
here is a test build I did for my system to show how flow rate directly affects how well a system is capable of preforming. the test build only has 2 X 360mm radiators on it, as a result it is only capable of holding a 4C delta T at load with 2 X pumps and a flow rate of 9.6LPM with my clocked hardware.
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/274855-29-experimental-radiator-build
here is a build log that shows I worked on this issue for 3 years, before I figured it all out. at the end of this log is the same system but with 3 X 360mm radiators on it, and 1 pump with a flow rate of 6.6LPM, as a result the system was able to hold a 1C delta T at load with the same clocked hardware.

I guess what I am trying to say, is that I do not know of any CPU air cooler that can handle a 400W+ load on it, without it getting very hot. regardless what fans are used with it, even 5500RPM delta fans would not solve this issue. that is why I think some people spend the extra cash to build a custom water loop for there PC systems.
Edited by toolmaker03 - 5/31/16 at 8:44am
post #15 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by toolmaker03 View Post

please do test it, that is the whole point of doing things on your own, and it is the best way to learn.
with that said, it can also be the most disappointing way to learn, when things don't work out quite the way you had hoped they would.
I really think that there just trying to help.
here is a little encouraging insight about the H100i as well as most AOI systems for that matter, they all suffer from the same issue, and that is a low flow rate with is a direct result of the small water pumps used to move the water through the system. so, a good upgrade for any AOI system with will actually increase its performance, is getting a better water pump for the system.(like a D5 or a DDT pump)
http://www.overclock.net/t/1573189/serial-vs-parallel-9-6lpm
here is a test build I did for my system to show how flow rate directly affects how well a system is capable of preforming. the test build only has 2 X 360mm radiators on it, as a result it is only capable of holding a 4C delta T at load with 2 X pumps and a flow rate of 9.6LPM with my clocked hardware.
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/274855-29-experimental-radiator-build
here is a build log that shows I worked on this issue for 3 years, before I figured it all out. at the end of this log is the same system but with 3 X 360mm radiators on it, and 1 pump with a flow rate of 6.6LPM, as a result the system was able to hold a 1C delta T at load with the same clocked hardware.

I guess what I am trying to say, is that I do not know of any CPU air cooler that can handle a 400W+ load on it, without it getting very hot. regardless what fans are used with it, even 5500RPM delta fans would not solve this issue. that is why I think some people spend the extra cash to build a custom water loop for there PC systems.

evidence......otherwise conjecture.

Again referenced EK not the H100i GTX. EK Predator has flow rated of many customs. The D-15 was nearly matching the EK at 340W test on anandtech so unless you have evidence showing 340W is the max it can do your making things up and that is of no help and counter productive and spreads false info.

If you don't have facts or evidence (same thing) whatever you have to say is of little use. If you have proof of all this you have claimed provide it otherwise your making stuff up and that helps no one.

How is it so hard to provide facts and to be intellectually honest? Is this common on this forum?

@toolmaker03 edited this (does that not work here?)
EDIT: BTW again the D-15 was 4.8C higher than the EK Predator 240 with a flow rate of 2.8LPM. It is shown the D-15 has room to improve with better fans since the current fans are quite slow. It may not be 9.6LPM was 2.8LPM is no slouch. I forget but on hardforum they were showing that once you pass X forget what it was but it wasn't a very high number in terms of LPM the decrease temps at best were a 1C or something. I could hunt for it if i wanted to but i don't really care.

Granted, you provided some decent numbers but nothing that states it won't work. That 3C is interesting. The last I saw someone do that stuff the best was only a C or 2. Still it doesn't show this won't work. Unless you have more data that's directly related to something that anandtech has done that can spread more light into performance.

If you have some hard facts please provide them but conjecture is useless here.

Additionally, foxrena and I are working on some other aspects to give the air heatsink an edge and improve the systems efficiency in removing heat. We shall see if it works.

Also I stated water is not an option....this is going in a Data Center
Edited by HOPELESSLYFAITH - 5/31/16 at 2:34am
post #16 of 31
I am sorry you feel that way, but in truth, years ago I did air cool my systems, and when I first started getting into the idea of overclocking my hardware. I spent over $2000 in different air cooling products, as well as some great upgrades for them, to no avail. I would hate to see you go through that kind of pain, just to realize that even the best air coolers, with the best upgrades for them, are not going to cut it. so, build this test build, with the hardware that you have, and see if it works. If it does not work, please stop there, don't go down that rabbit hole, and try sinking lots of money into this air cooling idea to solve the heat issue.
Edited by toolmaker03 - 5/31/16 at 9:31am
post #17 of 31
my current overclocking rig is a TEC powered water chiller.
http://www.overclock.net/t/1584867/tec-vacuum-chamber-build-log
I have spent quite a lot to make this build a reality, and I still have not finished it, but what I would like you to take notice of, is the amount of radiators I am using to cool 3 X 12726 TEC's. in my test build I only had one 12726 TEC, and 2 X 360mm radiators. my water temps on the hot side of that build where still at 40C, that is 10C above ambient. ok, so two 360mm radiators are capable of removing at least 600W of dissipated heat, and the best they could do with the hot side of one 12726 TEC at 16V was to hold a 10C delta T. TEC's produce a lot of heat on there hot side, and it takes a lot of cooling potential to remove that heat.
Edited by toolmaker03 - 5/31/16 at 9:47am
post #18 of 31
I am sure that if you where to look through the threads here in the TEC section, that you will find other threads, where others have tried to cool the hot side of a TEC with a CPU air cooler. there are probably even a few threads that have currently functional TEC builds with the use of water cooling, but they had started with trying to use air coolers for the hot side of the TEC to began with.
post #19 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by HOPELESSLYFAITH View Post

Well you keep referencing water but as i should on anandtech air heatsink is nearly the same as the best water AIO, which is just like a custom water loop.

I am just going to have to test this because i think everyone is so stuck in their ways they can;t even read data logically.

I know nothing about the EK predator loop, but I do know TECs and how they perform from a LOT of experience and multiple builds on three generations of processors. The review you posted shows 30c over ambient from that air cooler, which means a mid 50s hot side, a 30c cold side, and 75-80c CPU temp at load. These are facts backed up by my own experiences. You will be better off with a normal water cooler and no TEC, giving you a 25-28c block temp, and the same or lower temps without the extra power draw and heat output. If water is not an option, then a TEC will not work in this situation.

You are more then welcome to give it a try if you are so determined - every attempt shared is knowledge, whether it works as expected or not. I can tell you though that in the over a decade of performance computing I have never seen a direct die TEC setup work properly with an air cooler on anything modern, and its not because nobody has tried. Some of the most experienced TEC guys who actually owned businesses making TEC products attempted 2-3 years ago using giant server heatsinks, multiple TECs, and high CFM fans and I still never saw one of them finish successfully.

While it is true that I do not have my own attempts and failures to post to convince you with "facts", that is only because I did my research and realized it was unfeasible and saved myself the time. Sometimes you have to see for yourself though, so we can only give you what advice we can.
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Behemoth
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post #20 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puck View Post

I know nothing about the EK predator loop, but I do know TECs and how they perform from a LOT of experience and multiple builds on three generations of processors. The review you posted shows 30c over ambient from that air cooler, which means a mid 50s hot side, a 30c cold side, and 75-80c CPU temp at load. These are facts backed up by my own experiences. You will be better off with a normal water cooler and no TEC, giving you a 25-28c block temp, and the same or lower temps without the extra power draw and heat output. If water is not an option, then a TEC will not work in this situation.

You are more then welcome to give it a try if you are so determined - every attempt shared is knowledge, whether it works as expected or not. I can tell you though that in the over a decade of performance computing I have never seen a direct die TEC setup work properly with an air cooler on anything modern, and its not because nobody has tried. Some of the most experienced TEC guys who actually owned businesses making TEC products attempted 2-3 years ago using giant server heatsinks, multiple TECs, and high CFM fans and I still never saw one of them finish successfully.

While it is true that I do not have my own attempts and failures to post to convince you with "facts", that is only because I did my research and realized it was unfeasible and saved myself the time. Sometimes you have to see for yourself though, so we can only give you what advice we can.

and as stated water is not an option...i swear people can't read on this forum *facepalm*.
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