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[Build Log] Mac Classic Forever - Page 6

post #51 of 253
Thread Starter 
I drilled the mounting holes for the bottom radiator. It's placed 125mm from the inside of the rear panel and 25mm from the inside of the right hand side of the case.

This position allows for 25mm space for the cables of a 100mm deep, non modular SFX PSU mounted on the rear panel to bend up or sideways to clear the radiator and fan. Similarly for the modular cables of a modular SFX PSU mounted the same way.

SFX-L PSUs are 130mm deep so will not fit in that orientation, even without the necessary space for their cables. They are only 125mm wide though so will fit sideways. There's enough space to the left and right for the cables and the mains cable routing respectively.

So, all SFX and SFX-L PSUs should fit (aside from the issue that the cables of some might not be long enough perhaps).

The photo shows my SFX PSU in the sideways orientation for SFX-L PSUs which would be 30mm longer. The PSU overlaps the bottom fan of the 240 radiator but only near the side which I think will be out of the way of the modular connectors of a modular PSU.



The 25mm of space on the right would allow an 80mm exit fan to fit there. The space could also be useful for cable routing. Placing the radiator more to the left like this also moves the hoses away from the top edge of the GPU allowing for taller GPUs. And, as for the PSU placement, the central location will prevent the vent hole from interfering with the case feet.

So, lots of advantages to this location, critically the support for SFX-L PSUs which may become the dominant SFF PSU form factor but one big disadvantage: the radiator extends into the front panel by about the thickness of the panel in the worst case.

So I'm going to have to cut a hole in the bottom of the front panel to get it to fit again.

I decided it was worth it for full PSU compatibility because the radiator won't stick out too much and it ought to be possible to make it look good again by bending a sheet of material across the lower section of the front panel if necessary.
Edited by heb1001 - 7/15/16 at 10:29pm
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post #52 of 253
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Motherboard arrived today thanks to my generous and understanding wife who ordered it for me from Taobao as it's not otherwise on sale here.



Anyone wondering why I picked the questionable Seidon 240 AIO will now understand---it's the same block that fits the bracket supplied with the motherboard for the narrow 2011 V3 socket. At the time I thought it was the only option but since then I've found out you can get adapters for the EK block. The Seidon is still very good value by comparison though (assuming it turns out to be reliable and doesn't leak).

Test fit to see whether the water pipes can exit from under the rear radiator without kinking:



Seems to be OK.

The block is square but only fits in that one orientation. With the barbs on top they will interfere with the DIMM slots. The mounting bracket interferes with the barbs in the other two orientations. It would be possible to grind the bracket a bit to get it to fit which might allow the barbs at the front (or back) but it doesn't seem to be necessary.

The motherboard has 6 SATA slots and it looks like the pipes will clear a PCIe x4 adapter and riser in the M.2 slot which I will test when the adapter arrives.

I don't want to handle this board too much as I finish off the case so it'll be going back in the box for a while.
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post #53 of 253
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I picked up another Seidon 120 XL for 280 RMB yesterday to get the bottom radiator, fans and accessories; more expensive than the last one because I thought I was paying for a good one. I did inspect it briefly in the shop and didn't notice anything wrong but when I unpacked it at home found it was also leaking. Or at least, it was wet with some fluid that wasn't water. It wasn't obviously gushing out from a hole.



The dessicant was soggy too and the plate is a little corroded.



I had asked the vendor for another one assuming I'd have to buy a good one but he probably thought I wanted another failed one on the cheap and was expecting me to haggle a bit from the 280 he asked. He did have to phone around for it and get it delivered this time so he did do a bit more work for me than last time.

Aside from paying a little more than I would otherwise have done, none of this is a problem because the radiator seems to be OK and if I was going to reuse the block I'd lap it first anyway.

So, from the three AIO purchases, I now have the full complement of radiators, accessories, fans, fan splitters for them and the CPU block. I'm left with one spare fan and two blocks from the XLs.

I did have plans for the two XL blocks: http://www.overclock.net/t/1605396/is-a-single-loop-tec-hybrid-cooler-feasible but after doing the analysis have concluded that these blocks aren't the right design for that idea and they are a bit too wide to fit in the best remaining position in the case anyway so it looks like they are going into the junk box for the time being.

The M.2 to PCIe adapter (20 RMB) and ribbon cable (11 RMB) arrived today:



The adapter fits in the slot but the power socket interferes with the CPU block barbs. Thinking again about the option of grinding the CPU block mounting bracket I presented the CPU block to the CPU socket with the barbs at the front but in that orientation the barbs also interfere with the bracket mounting bolts. So it looks like I need to remove the M.2 adapter's power socket and solder power wires to it directly. The ribbon cable fits and can exit from under the radiator:



I ordered a shortish ribbon cable and it's a couple of cm too short but with a longer one it looks like it will be possible to add a half length, full height PCIe x4 slot in the top front of the case with the IO bracket on the right side of the case. Roughly like this but with a hole in the case to fit the card properly:



It's going to be tight with the DisplayPort plug for the LCD but I can always rearrange that if necessary. With the new PCIe slot up high enough to clear the GPU by a couple of cm it should still be possible to fit a slimline drive.

It seems like the right thing to do this PCIe slot becuase it adds a lot of potential flexibility to the build and could extend the life of the platform.
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post #54 of 253
Thread Starter 
I spent a couple of evenings working on the model to make it more accurate before I design the SSD, ODD and PCIe slot bracket.

The ODD and XRES models I showed in previous designs were downloaded from the Sketchup library but I've drawn everything in the latest model myself to make sure the dimensions are right. The PCIe card is done fairly carefully from the dimensions in the spec. The EK bracket and XRES are measured from the ones I have.

I've also been playing with the idea of trying to squeeze in some TECs. I would sandwich cold blocks between hot blocks to minimise the area of exposed cold surface and better match the heat transfer requirements where up to 3X the heat is transferred from the hot blocks to the hot water as is removed from the cold water to the cold blocks. So there are two layers of TECs in each sandwich with the cold sides on the inside and three layers of water blocks. This gives the hot side 2X area of the cold side for the block-water interface. The hot side could also have a faster flow-rate with the D5 than the cold side with the little pump in the Seidon block.

According to my simulation, 12 TECs on 6V would get some nice temps for a 500W load for about 250W extra power (so within the budget of a 750W SFX-L PSU) and down below zero on 12V with about 1kW power (requiring an external PSU) assuming I could get enough air through the case (a bit questionable now the case is almost full).

The placement shown is the best I've come up with so far but would mean cutting up the area behind the handle quite badly for pipes at the rear to cross the case. I'm trying to find another solution. TECs would be fun but expensive so I may abandon this idea.



Pipes out the top would work, would only require holes through the top of the case and would help with filling the TEC water blocks too. This configuration is for parallel flow. The plumbing is going to be ugly, particularly with insulation.



Custom heat exchangers for the TECs looks like a promising direction: by joining the upper and lower hot blocks neatly to create a single, central hot barb at each end it's possible to avoid having to cut up the area behind the handle as much as in the first design. It would only be necessary to drill holes for the pipes to cross the gap. The custom exchangers could also be a little less thick than the previous ones (which I based on 12mm thick water blocks advertised on Taobao) to improve clearance above the motherboard and 240 radiator which was previously a bit tight. The design with pipes crossing at the rear would place the two exchangers in series but the hot and cold flows could still be in opposite directions for the most efficient heat exchange. The exchangers may need to be a bit longer to get more space between the hot and cold barbs for tubing, jubilee clips and insulation.

This design could theoretically be made with just 6, 8 and 10mm OD copper pipe, 1mm copper plate, some 2mm clamping plates and 4mm nuts and bolts using a hacksaw, drill and a fair amount of brazing. I may be able to do it myself.

The pipes out the top design was just too ugly. This one would look OK I think.


Edited by heb1001 - 7/22/16 at 6:12am
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post #55 of 253
Thread Starter 
With two loops and TECs, there's a worry that perhaps the little Seidon block's pump will not be powerful enough or perhaps the block will leak if it gets too cold. It's assembled with tamper-proof screws (the kind which can only be turned in one direction) so there's no possibility of inspecting it or replacing the O-ring (assuming it has one) with something that can tolerate lower temps.

Given the TEC design that puts the hot and cold loops through and across the back of the case, it's a small step to divert the flow and the next obvious improvement would be a second dedicated pump and reservoir (for the hot loop since it would be bolted to the exhaust fan) freeing up the internal one for the cold loop.

This would allow the Seidon block to be replaced with a dedicated block like the EK one (assuming it fits given the other constraints).



Putting stuff outside is cheating a bit but unlike the earlier ugly plumbing design this extra reservoir wouldn't be visible from the front so I think it would be reasonably consistent with my original goal of preserving the retro look of the case. If the reservoir does stand out too much, I could always spray it beige wink.gif
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post #56 of 253
Thread Starter 
I spent most of the weekend designing the PCIe slot and mounting brackets for the SSDs and ODD. I also found space for an ASUS fan extension card which can be used as a powered PWM fan splitter. It's attached to the side, vertical between the PCIe slot and the motherboard. I'm not sure I want to use it since it is more functional when connected to an ASUS board and just using it as a fan splitter is a bit of a waste.

You can see some of the brackets and the PCIe slot in this picture. The PCIe slot is a bit ugly but maybe if it's painted the same color as the case it won't be so bad.


This one with the PCIe card removed shows the back of the fan splitter:


This is the front SSD bracket which attaches to the pump bracket, the lower left 120 fan and the right ODD bracket. It holds one side of the PCIe ribbon connector PCB. There are 6 SSD bays spaced at 8mm intervals but the holes are spaced at 4mm intervals to allow for some flexibility for drives of different heights or to allow wider spacing with fewer drives.


The rear SSD/ODD bracket attaches to the inner rear 120 fan, the pump bracket and the lower left 120 fan. The back of the ODD is mounted to this bracket.


The left ODD bracket attaches to the lower left 120 fan:


The right ODD bracket attaches to the front SSD bracket and the PCIe slot lower support bracket:


The PCIe slot side panel plates attach to the PCIe slot lower support bracket and the case:


The PCIe slot lower support bracket attaches to the lower PCIe slot side panel plate and the right ODD bracket. It holds the other side of the PCIe ribbon connector PCB and, with the lower PCIe slot side panel plate, also forms the hole that the bottom of the PCIe card bracket fits into:


There are a couple of obvious problems: I'm worried that the front right side of the ODD will sag. It may be necessary either to extend the right ODD bracket all the way to the lower left 120 fan so it forms a beam across the front of the case or alternatively to put a vertical support to hang the end of the front SSD bracket from the top of the case. Also, the front right SSD mounting screws are obscured by the left mounting of the PCIe connector PCB and 8mm spacing is too close for the thumbscrews I have. Maybe smaller thumbscrews would work.

I searched online for the best way to cut aluminium and found someone saying you could use a hammer and chisel. That seems like it might be faster than a hacksaw so I'm going to give it a go once I've translated the 3D designs into 2D templates.

This project is the first time I've used Sketchup. I'm really liking it.
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post #57 of 253
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I tried out the hammer and chisel technique on some 1mm aluminium and found that my 30mm chisel was too wide to cut through with the amount of hammer force I was comfortable with so I went to buy a couple of narrower ones (6mm 22.9 RMB and 12mm 24.9 RMB) and also found some Stanley Fat Max aviation snips (87.9 RMB) which cut 1mm aluminium like scissors through cardboard. I also picked up a small bottle of PVA glue to stick the template to the sheet metal (4.2 RMB) EDIT: PVA did not work see next post. I'm feeling fairly well equipped for this task now.

I translated the 3D bracket designs into 2D templates:


Here is the PDF to scale:
bracket.pdf 6k .pdf file

I used the Dia drawing program for this again and did it all manually. This was a bit painful for a couple of reasons: Dia has the interesting feature that it reports line lengths as the real length of the line plus the line width. This means you need to make all dimensions one line width longer than the desired value; I also haven't found a way of specifying the length of a line other than moving the endpoints to the right place with the mouse and snapping them to the grid.

I had to modify the design to take into account my limited ability to create bends. I followed a guide in the document "BendWorks The fine-art of Sheet Metal Bending" by Olaf Diegel which explains about bend allowances and bend deductions. I used a bend deduction of 3mm for the 90 degree bends which I measured from a test bend I made using pliers. I removed a couple of aspects of the design which were impossible for me to make: the part of the rear SSD bracket that wrapped around the side of the ODD and the part of the right ODD bracket that had a small sharp bend with screw holes. Now the right ODD bracket will just hold the ODD like a clip without screws. I also made the clip part wider so the bends won't interfere with the ODD. The lower PCIe Slot Support bracket is going to be a bit of a challenge to make because I need to keep the little metal tabs intact to constrain the sideways movement of the PCIe card bracket.

I updated a few of the brackets in the model as I was going along but had some problems with the brackets that aren't quite square so didn't do all of them. Here's one showing the new bends:



I'm going to stick the template to the metal and let it dry overnight so I can start cutting tomorrow.
Edited by heb1001 - 7/29/16 at 10:12am
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post #58 of 253
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So the PVA didn't work. When I woke up it was dry but the template was loose on the metal surface. I may have watered it down too much perhaps. I chose PVA because I wanted to be able to get the paper template off again easily but rather than try again with more concentrated PVA I switched instead to a contact adhesive which was extremely effective but has left me with no idea how to remove the paper or clean off the glue.

Here's the state of the parts after finishing with the aviation snips:


A shot of the tools I used including the Pattex contact adhesive and the parts after finishing with the hammer and chisels:


The aviation snips and the chiseling caused the parts to bend so it was necessary to hammer them flat between operations.

The 12mm chisel is a good size for making progress without having to use more force than a sharp tap (so reasonably safe). It's easier to cut accurately with the chisel than with the aviation snips but the snips are faster. The chisel can do the inside cuts and sharp corners nicely. There was a little bit of distortion on the left ODD bracket where I snipped one long side and chiseled the other. The chiseled side was stretched a bit so the fan mounting holes don't quite line up perfectly.

Here's a shot of the metal side after drilling and deburring with a file and a bit of sanding:


And a final shot of the SSD bay and left ODD bracket installed after bending the parts to shape with a matching pair of angle nose pliers:


The SSD bay is fairly solid. It's not going to sag with the ODD installed. It's also possible to assemble it outside the case and screw it to the rear fan after installing it so assembly is easy enough.

There are a couple of problems though: two of the holes don't match up correctly with the holes in the bracket they are supposed to be fixed to. I probably copied and pasted them in Dia then forgot to place them properly. I can fix that by drilling some extra holes or I could remake one of the brackets. Also the ODD mounting is a bit too close to the GPU. I think I put it as far down as the model would allow so as to clear the bottom of the mounting panel of the screen but it looks like the ODD may touch some components on the rear of the GPU PCB. I need to get an ODD to test fit and maybe slot the mounting holes for it to raise it up a bit. I may need to remake the ODD brackets.

I'm fairly happy with how this went. The process is fairly quick and easy enough so I'm not too worried about having to iterate a bit if necessary to get the ODD to fit.
Edited by heb1001 - 8/2/16 at 8:38am
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post #59 of 253
Thread Starter 
I managed to find a Panasonic UJ273 (450 RMB). It's a 9.0mm drive, not the 9.5mm I had designed for, so results in an extra 0.5mm clearance from the GPU. I trimmed some excess metal and the extra 0.5mm from the left and rear ODD mounting brackets and the test fit was successful:



I had to slot the holes on the left ODD mounting bracket which had stretched apart when I chiseled it and one of the holes on the drive didn't line up with the hole in the rear SSD bracket. The model I created of the 9.5mm drive from the spec isn't the same as the 9mm drive for this hole.

It's a very tight fit:



I'm not sure if a GPU with a backplate would fit in there but if I needed to I could slot all the radiator mounting holes and lift everything 1mm up from the GPU so it would be fixable.

The case is slightly flexible when the front is off and I think some of the problems I've been having with clearances are a result of taking measurements from the case when it is flexing a little under the weight of the components installed. It's harder working with the existing case than it would be to design everything from scratch.

The design has the ODD placed precisely in the middle of the front but it's currently out horizontally by 1mm to the right. I'm not exactly sure why. Maybe the rubber corners on the radiator fans.
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post #60 of 253
Thread Starter 
I went out shopping today to investigate the availability of copper pipe and plate for the TEC heat exchangers.

You might have thought this would be a lost cause on a Sunday afternoon but in fact I was a bit too successful, managing to buy everything before working out roughly what a fair price would be. Hopefully I didn't pay too much of a foreigner tax:

1m x 200mm x 1mm copper plate 380RMB
2 pieces 1m x 10mm diameter copper pipe 100RMB
2 pieces 1m x 8mm diameter copper pipe 80RMB
10 pieces 1m x 6mm diameter copper pipe 300RMB
1kg 209 brazing rod 360RMB
1 pot QJ102 flux powder 50RMB

Here are the results:



The square of paper is a receipt for a portable brazing torch (580RMB) which I need to pick up after the vendor has filled the oxygen tank for me.

I did a bit of welding when I was a child but this will be the first time I try brazing. I have a fair amount more work to do on other things before I'll get around to this part of the project though.

This lot was fairly expensive but the TECs will be significantly more. I'm not going to buy them unless I'm actually successful making the heat exchangers.
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i7 6800K ASUS X99 Deluxe GTX 980 Samsung SSD 840 
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Xeon X5690 ASUS Rampage II Gene GTX 980 Ti GTX 980 Ti 
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Kingston Samsung 850 EVO Western Digital Red Samsung 850 EVO 
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Matshita BD UJ235AS Corsair H100i Thermaltake Extreme Spirit II Custom VRM heatsinks 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
Noctua NFR8 Noctua NFR8 Fractal design Venturi HP-12 PWM Fractal design Venturi HP-12 PWM 
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Ubuntu LTS Windows 10 Samsung 40" 4K Smart TV Cherry 
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Antec Hi Current Pro 1300W Silverstone Grandia GD05 Gigabyte GM M6900 HiFime UH1 384kHz USB DAC, headphone amplifier ... 
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SIlverstone FP58B 5.25" Slim ODD Bay with Inter... Transcend TS-PDC3 Combo PCIe SATA and USB 3.0 card PCIe x4 riser ribbon cable 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsHard Drive
intel Xeon X5680 ASUS P6T7 WS Supercomputer Leadtech GTX 760 intel SSD 750 
Hard DriveOptical DriveOptical DriveCooling
Samsung EVO ASUS DVD RW ASUS DVD ROM Corsair H110i GTX 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 10 Samsung SyncMaster F2380 Razer Blackwidow Ultimate 2014 Seasonic M12D 
CaseMouseMouse PadOther
NZXT Phantom 410 Razer Deathadder 2013 Razer Saitek X52 
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Cube
(16 items)
 
Black
(27 items)
 
Supercomputer
(16 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsHard Drive
i7 6800K ASUS X99 Deluxe GTX 980 Samsung SSD 840 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Samsung SSD 750 Western Digital Green Corsair H100i Ubuntu 14.04 LTS 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 10 Samsung 48" curved 4K Smart TV UA48JU6800 Razer Blackwidow Ultimate Chroma Enermax Platimax 1350W 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
Silverstone Grandia GD09 Razer DeathAdder Chroma Razer ASUS Essence STX II 7.1 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
Xeon X5690 ASUS Rampage II Gene GTX 980 Ti GTX 980 Ti 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Kingston Samsung 850 EVO Western Digital Red Samsung 850 EVO 
Optical DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Matshita BD UJ235AS Corsair H100i Thermaltake Extreme Spirit II Custom VRM heatsinks 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
Noctua NFR8 Noctua NFR8 Fractal design Venturi HP-12 PWM Fractal design Venturi HP-12 PWM 
OSOSMonitorKeyboard
Ubuntu LTS Windows 10 Samsung 40" 4K Smart TV Cherry 
PowerCaseMouseAudio
Antec Hi Current Pro 1300W Silverstone Grandia GD05 Gigabyte GM M6900 HiFime UH1 384kHz USB DAC, headphone amplifier ... 
OtherOtherOther
SIlverstone FP58B 5.25" Slim ODD Bay with Inter... Transcend TS-PDC3 Combo PCIe SATA and USB 3.0 card PCIe x4 riser ribbon cable 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsHard Drive
intel Xeon X5680 ASUS P6T7 WS Supercomputer Leadtech GTX 760 intel SSD 750 
Hard DriveOptical DriveOptical DriveCooling
Samsung EVO ASUS DVD RW ASUS DVD ROM Corsair H110i GTX 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 10 Samsung SyncMaster F2380 Razer Blackwidow Ultimate 2014 Seasonic M12D 
CaseMouseMouse PadOther
NZXT Phantom 410 Razer Deathadder 2013 Razer Saitek X52 
  hide details  
Reply
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