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[Techspot] Samsung's new 512GB solid state drive is impossibly tiny - Page 6

post #51 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chunky_Chimp View Post

You're drastically underestimating how long standard dual-layer NAND can last. I can see you'd have a point if this was about use in an enterprise environment, but then SLC NAND is usually used there for that reason, anyway.

The problem with SSD storage is that it doesn't expire all at once, it expires little by little. I read a study a while back where they measured SSD data integrity against HDDs. What they found was that SSDs had a not insignificantly lower failure rate, but that the SSDs would loses significant capacity over the span of a few years.

http://www.zdnet.com/article/ssd-reliability-in-the-real-world-googles-experience/
post #52 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chunky_Chimp View Post

Er, wha?
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksTricks007 View Post

Now that is definitely a feat of engineering. Imagine 4 of those packaged together in a RAID 0 array drool.gif
I'll do you one better, how about mobos with a stacked set of them built in? Or imagine Intel building one into a CPU in Optane format on its own dedicated memory channel.

I like ideas like these, because we can only get to about 7nm in size they will start to stack the die up in interconnecting levels consisting of it own dedicated memory... mmmmm rolleyes.gif
     
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post #53 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

where exactly do they say XPoint was 3D NAND? all i see is they're comparing XPoint to 3D NAND.

Look, this is how it works.

The 3D NAND license is owned by Sandisk, not intel. Intel came out with their own version of 3D NAND that's an improvement over existing 3D NAND so that they don't have to license the tech from Sandisk to create their enterprise SSD's and to go in direct competition with Sandisk and everyone who is making 3D NAND products.

That extra layer of circuitry running 90 degrees perpendicular from the first set of circuitry you see in all of the ads? That's the only difference between Xpoint and 3D NAND at the addressable memory stage. The rest is what you call branding. Intel is pushing their branding of Xpoint hard because they don't own the majority share in it's design but their contract with Micron contains an agreement that gives intel a grace period to brand their line of products while Micron has to remain quiet about what they're going to release with the same technology..

Simple version: Intel has been hyping the crap about Xpoint while glossing over the fact that it's not some grand new quantum-tech that's going to revolutionize the industry and is really just a new spin on an old product, because they want everybody to stop buying that old product immediately and buy the new hyped product which they have a much, much larger profit margin on because they own it.

Edit: My ISP is freaking out right now so if this ends up double or triple posted I'm sorry, but I've already tried about nine times to get it to go through.
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post #54 of 93
Quote:
impossible tiny
Typical marketing hype. Just look at the size and capacities of SD+Micro SD cards.

MicroSD: 15 mm * 11 mm* 1 mm
This SSD: 20 mm * 16 mm * 1.5 mm

What's so special about this SSD? Really not all that impressive IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeing Red View Post

512GB is not necessary, we just need something to get us beyond the 16GB standard and quell the complaints about not including a MicroSD slot.
Damn right. 16GB is not a lot of storage.

With the price you pay for the expensive smartphones it's ridiculous that a lot don't come with SD card slots. Right now you can buy a new 200GB MicroSDXC card for under $80, a 128GB MicroSDXC card for around $30, and 64GB can be had for $15. Apple on the other hand wants to charge you a $100 difference between their 16GB and 64GB versions for their iPhone 6s Plus. An SD card slot option would be much nicer IMO. If phones had 128GB of internal storage, ditching SD card slots definitely wouldn't be so evil but at the moment not having an SD slot is actually quite a restriction.

It's clear they want everyone using "cloud" services but I remain unconvinced that those are a better alternative to storing your data on your own hardware. In some cases, sure, but all of them? No. Privacy/security issues aside at home/personal storage can be several hundred times faster (especially uploading) because the internet is typically very slow compared to local storage.
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post #55 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganf View Post

Look, this is how it works.

The 3D NAND license is owned by Sandisk, not intel. Intel came out with their own version of 3D NAND that's an improvement over existing 3D NAND so that they don't have to license the tech from Sandisk to create their enterprise SSD's and to go in direct competition with Sandisk and everyone who is making 3D NAND products.

That extra layer of circuitry running 90 degrees perpendicular from the first set of circuitry you see in all of the ads? That's the only difference between Xpoint and 3D NAND at the addressable memory stage. The rest is what you call branding. Intel is pushing their branding of Xpoint hard because they don't own the majority share in it's design but their contract with Micron contains an agreement that gives intel a grace period to brand their line of products while Micron has to remain quiet about what they're going to release with the same technology..

Simple version: Intel has been hyping the crap about Xpoint while glossing over the fact that it's not some grand new quantum-tech that's going to revolutionize the industry and is really just a new spin on an old product, because they want everybody to stop buying that old product immediately and buy the new hyped product which they have a much, much larger profit margin on because they own it.

Edit: My ISP is freaking out right now so if this ends up double or triple posted I'm sorry, but I've already tried about nine times to get it to go through.

Isn't that Samsung that owns 3d nand patents they market it as V nand, noone else is producing it other than Samsung, Intel or Sandisk dont have any ssd in market with 3dnand, they all got old planar.
post #56 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonjoe View Post

Isn't that Samsung that owns 3d nand patents they market it as V nand, noone else is producing it other than Samsung, Intel or Sandisk dont have any ssd in market with 3dnand, they all got old planar.

This is where it gets interesting and I'm not sure exactly how the details work, whose nose is between which cheeks, which contracts were signed in blood etc....

Sandisk and Toshiba branded 3D NAND in 2008. Samsung and Hynix, Micron and others all have their own spin on 3D NAND that are physically different but still similar enough that they fall under Sandisks license. Somehow, even though as far as I can tell Xpoint isn't any more physically distinct from the different 3D NAND's that it wouldn't also fall under Sandisks license, they aren't. Intel and Micron have full ownership over Xpoint (I'm assuming because the cross circuitry allows the memory addresses to be used in a unique way) while everyone else pays licensing fees to Sandisk and I assume not Toshiba for some reason because their name never gets mentioned in the deals.

Want more information? Ask a corporate patent lawyer, this is as far as I care to dig into it. For all I know there's some crazy crap written in some unheard-of agreement that was made when Sandisk bought Matrix, whose tech the original 3D memory that Sandisk made was based off of, that causes everyone to swear fealty to the firstborn of some obscure oligarchy in Mali before anyone can etch a new DIMM prototype.

Crap gets weird in the memory world.

EDIT:

Here, I found this.

http://www.wipo.int/export/sites/www/patentscope/en/programs/patent_landscapes/documents/lexinnova_plr_3d_stacked_memory.pdf

It doesn't explain details, because I suspect it'd take a series of novels the size of War and Peace to explain all of the details, but this patent topography analysis shows that Sandisk owns the vast majority of 3D memory patents.

Yes, they keep referring to it as 3D memory patents instead of 3D NAND. No, that does not matter. 3D NAND is a brand name, not a patent or a distinct technology, and as far as I can tell Sandisk and Toshiba created that brand. I don't know if Toshiba still owns their part or if Sandisk bought it or acquired it through a stipulation in the JV agreement or what, but there it is. From a patent standpoint Sandisk is inarguably holding the crown.

SECOND EDIT:

I thought I'd clarify a bit on how the logical leap of "Sandisk owns the patents, so Sandisk owns 3D NAND" works when I didn't show anything saying something like "3D NAND is a licensed trademark of Sandisk Corporation Ltd" or some such (because as far as I can tell there has never been any public statement from any company about who exactly owns 3D NAND as a marketing brand).

Here goes....

You'll notice in that patent pdf on page 14 a little graphic demonstrating patent quality and quantity of each company in possession of these patents. At the top of the patent quality heap, above everybody by a full head and shoulders and maybe even a nipple or two, stands Matrix Semiconductors Inc. As I mentioned earlier Matrix Semi was bought by Sandisk. This acquisition was completed in 2006.

Now scroll back up to page 11 and you'll see that Matrix Semi only has 36 patents to their name despite having the "best" patents. At the time that Sandisk bought them, Matrix Semi was the world leader in 3D memory research. They were a small startup company that was just founded in 1999 and they were absolutely dominating the field, so Sandisk snatched them up before anyone else could also get smart and make a better offer.

Those 3 dozen patents are fundamental building blocks of pretty much every 3D Memory technology on the market today.

So when Samsung, Micron, Hynix or any of the other big memory players out there want to make 3D memory, they always have to step to Sandisk and ask to license these fundamental patents. Sandisk has wisely decided it'd be a great idea to make sure that everyone knows that these competitive companies are using Sandisks technology to make their own products, so what they say when these companies ask to purchase licenses is something similar to this....

"Oh, you want to license patents A, B and C? Well, it seems that those patents fall within our 3D NAND licensing package, and in order to license them you're also going to have to license the 3D NAND name. This means that you'll be required by contract to label the architecture as 3D NAND in all of your promotional literature where you would typically be stating......"

Annnd so on. Naturally big players like Samsung have enough leverage and are willing to pay enough money to get special licensing deals, such as being able to label their new lineup as 3D V-NAND, which still sounds like a Sandisk brand but is unique enough to be associated more strongly with Samsung.

Etc....

Alright, I'm done lecturing. If you haven't figured it out by now you never will.
Edited by Ganf - 6/1/16 at 6:14pm
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post #57 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chunky_Chimp View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

NAND has write-cycle limitations, DRAM doesn't. unless you want a CPU that expires prematurely, then no.
even on a motherboard, i wouldn't like a non-replaceable device attached to it, specially when it can expire in a few years of usage.
You're drastically underestimating how long standard dual-layer NAND can last. I can see you'd have a point if this was about use in an enterprise environment, but then SLC NAND is usually used there for that reason, anyway.

You are right. By the time the SSD needs replacing the CPU will be too slow anyway, unless you intend to use the CPU for up to twenty years.

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post #58 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liranan View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chunky_Chimp View Post

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

NAND has write-cycle limitations, DRAM doesn't. unless you want a CPU that expires prematurely, then no.

even on a motherboard, i wouldn't like a non-replaceable device attached to it, specially when it can expire in a few years of usage.
You're drastically underestimating how long standard dual-layer NAND can last. I can see you'd have a point if this was about use in an enterprise environment, but then SLC NAND is usually used there for that reason, anyway.
You are right. By the time the SSD needs replacing the CPU will be too slow anyway, unless you intend to use the CPU for up to twenty years.

Exhausting write cycles isn't the only way to kill an SSD. Most SSD failures are from the controller taking a dump, not write exhaustion. I would prefer an SSD on the MOBO to be socketed so it can be easily replaced if it fails for whatever reason or upgraded to a larger and/or faster version sometime down the road, same as the current M.2 scan be replaced.
     
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post #59 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald View Post

Exhausting write cycles isn't the only way to kill an SSD. Most SSD failures are from the controller taking a dump, not write exhaustion. I would prefer an SSD on the MOBO to be socketed so it can be easily replaced if it fails for whatever reason or upgraded to a larger and/or faster version sometime down the road, same as the current M.2 scan be replaced.

Yes, why even a debate about soldered vs socket ?
post #60 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by TUFinside View Post

Yes, why even a debate about soldered vs socket ?

good point, why would we need a soldered SSD as opposed to a socketed SSD (M.2 or something similar) on a desktop unit?
soldered SSDs would be more useful on something extremely compact, like a phone or tablet since PCB space is a premium.

it isn't really necessary to make the SSD on-die to make it drastically faster, even DRAM is a whole-tier faster than SSDs despite being a slot design.
what makes NAND flash slow isn't the electrical gap between the CPU and the SSD, its the architecture that makes it slow.
change that architecture to have a more straightforward read/write cycle then you can make an SSD a lot faster, even through a cable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganf View Post

Look, this is how it works.

The 3D NAND license is owned by Sandisk, not intel. Intel came out with their own version of 3D NAND that's an improvement over existing 3D NAND so that they don't have to license the tech from Sandisk to create their enterprise SSD's and to go in direct competition with Sandisk and everyone who is making 3D NAND products.

That extra layer of circuitry running 90 degrees perpendicular from the first set of circuitry you see in all of the ads? That's the only difference between Xpoint and 3D NAND at the addressable memory stage. The rest is what you call branding. Intel is pushing their branding of Xpoint hard because they don't own the majority share in it's design but their contract with Micron contains an agreement that gives intel a grace period to brand their line of products while Micron has to remain quiet about what they're going to release with the same technology..

Simple version: Intel has been hyping the crap about Xpoint while glossing over the fact that it's not some grand new quantum-tech that's going to revolutionize the industry and is really just a new spin on an old product, because they want everybody to stop buying that old product immediately and buy the new hyped product which they have a much, much larger profit margin on because they own it.

Edit: My ISP is freaking out right now so if this ends up double or triple posted I'm sorry, but I've already tried about nine times to get it to go through.

3D XPoint doesn't work like NAND flash, 3D XPoint isn't a charge trap like NAND flash, 3D XPoint does not use electrons to store charge in a cell like NAND flash does.
3D XPoint has been stated to use electrical resistance and to be bit addressable, but 3D XPoint storage physics is different than resistive-ram.
Edited by epic1337 - 6/2/16 at 5:08am
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