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[Techspot] Samsung's new 512GB solid state drive is impossibly tiny - Page 8

post #71 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksTricks007 View Post

Now that is definitely a feat of engineering. Imagine 4 of those packaged together in a RAID 0 array drool.gif

No.
Just say no to RAID0

1+0 is fine.
5 is fine.
6 is fine.

Say no to 0. There's not much of a performance benefit for NAND that has a well implemented controller and the risk of data loss is MUCH higher.
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post #72 of 93
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by xlink View Post

No.
Just say no to RAID0

1+0 is fine.
5 is fine.
6 is fine.

Say no to 0. There's not much of a performance benefit for NAND that has a well implemented controller and the risk of data loss is MUCH higher.

I'm not caught up on the technical aspects of ssds when it comes to RAID arrays. Thanks for the info.
post #73 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by xlink View Post

No.
Just say no to RAID0

1+0 is fine.
5 is fine.
6 is fine.

Say no to 0. There's not much of a performance benefit for NAND that has a well implemented controller and the risk of data loss is MUCH higher.

RAID0 and more NAND controller channels is the same thing though.
even functionally they're practically the same, with minimal differences in how they operate.

e.g. a 4channel controller will have 4 NAND packages, an 8channel controller will have 8 NAND packages.
with this in mind, a RAID0 SSD with 4channel controller will have 8 NAND packages in total.
post #74 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald View Post

And the release dates of the 4TB 850 EVOs and Pros in the SSA (Squabbling States of America, formerly known as the USA)?

hmmsmiley02.gif the 1TB is already quite expensive, i can't even imagine how much would the 4TB would cost.

In Europe, where 4TB 850 EVO has already been released, it has been running €1399, which is roughly $1562 USD. And that is the initial MSRP. Within a handful of months, the prices will probably drop, especially around Black Friday here in the SSA.
     
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post #75 of 93
And yet they still dont have a 1TB consumer M.2 drive.
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post #76 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

the hell are you smoking?

3D NAND is planar NAND flash stacked vertically.
because it uses a different physics approach than resistive-ram, it is much closer the phase-change in phyisical characteristics but uses resistive-ram's electrical characteristics.

XPoint uses chalcogenide as the base material for it's cells, which is the major component of phase-change memory.
but 3D XPoint is a resistance based technology that works by a bulk property change to alter the resistance level of a cell and thus differentiate between a 0 and 1.
as such its in between phase-change and resistive memory in architecture, it is neither.

furthermore, XPoint or Cross Point fits exactly in the descriptive of sense, it is a cross between phase-change and resistive memory architecture.

3D NAND is planar NAND stacked vertically, but in order to do it the process is in no way as simple as just piling it on, there are several types of 3D NAND which are all dramatically different in design, yet they all fall under the same umbrella despite being better described as 3D Memory.

You've got Toshiba's P-BICS architecture, which is entirely different from Sandisks architecture despite having been developed through their Joint Venture with Sandisk.




Why is this marketed as 3D NAND instead of P-BICS or something a little more catchy?

Licensing agreements.

Samsung has their own architecture known as NCAT. Yet it's also marketed under 3D NAND.




Completely different from both Toshiba and Sandisks 3D Memory architecture, yet it's marketed as 3D NAND. Why? Because they can't make it without licensing patents from Sandisk.

Hynix has an architecture that doesn't even use charge traps yet is still marketed under 3D NAND.




What does this memory design have to do with 3D NAND? Almost nothing, except that there are some fundamental patents involving 3D Memory in general that Hynix has to license from Sandisk to make their own architecture.

You get it now? 3D NAND is covering a whole hell of a lot more in architecture design than just stacked NAND memory. There are dramatic differences between everyone's different iterations on it, and they're all being pushed under the same label because Sandisk holds the keystone to everyone's design, and pushes the label 3D NAND on everyone as part of their licensing agreements. Many of the patents that companies have to license from Sandisk have absolutely nothing to do with NAND architecture. They are general, broad patents that cover 3D memory architecture as a whole.

It's the fact that Intel and Micron got around those 3D memory architecture patents that has me surprised. That's like building a house without a foundation. If they had to pull a single patent license from Sandisk I promise you Sandisk would have pushed the 3D NAND branding license on them as part of the deal.

The fact that it's part PCM and part Memristor doesn't matter at all. It's 3D memory, and Sandisk has the lion's share of patents in that market, and they also have the most fundamental and valuable patents. Making 3D memory of any architecture design without using at least a couple of the patents owned by Sandisk is like building a Swiss watch without gears.

Edit:

So to SUMMARIZE: Because we are getting way the hell off track here.

Epic sez: Isn't Xpoint some sort of unicorn?

I sez: No, it's 3D memory just like everything else, which has come to be commonly known as 3D NAND even though that label is inaccurate for the majority of 3D memory available on the market.

Epic sez: But Xpoint is PCM/Memristor, so it's a unicorn right?

I sez: No, because 3D NAND isn't necessarily NAND, because marketing, it can be many different types of memory including PCM/Memristor, the only unifying factor is that it is 3D, and that Sandisk owns the intellectual property.
Edited by Ganf - 6/2/16 at 11:19am
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post #77 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganf View Post

3D NAND is planar NAND stacked vertically, but in order to do it the process is in no way as simple as just piling it on, there are several types of 3D NAND which are all dramatically different in design, yet they all fall under the same umbrella despite being better described as 3D Memory.

You've got Toshiba's P-BICS architecture, which is entirely different from Sandisks architecture despite having been developed through their Joint Venture with Sandisk.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)


Why is this marketed as 3D NAND instead of P-BICS or something a little more catchy?

Licensing agreements.

Samsung has their own architecture known as NCAT. Yet it's also marketed under 3D NAND.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)


Completely different from both Toshiba and Sandisks 3D Memory architecture, yet it's marketed as 3D NAND. Why? Because they can't make it without licensing patents from Sandisk.

Hynix has an architecture that doesn't even use charge traps yet is still marketed under 3D NAND.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)


What does this memory design have to do with 3D NAND? Almost nothing, except that there are some fundamental patents involving 3D Memory in general that Hynix has to license from Sandisk to make their own architecture.

You get it now? 3D NAND is covering a whole hell of a lot more in architecture design than just stacked NAND memory. There are dramatic differences between everyone's different iterations on it, and they're all being pushed under the same label because Sandisk holds the keystone to everyone's design, and pushes the label 3D NAND on everyone as part of their licensing agreements. Many of the patents that companies have to license from Sandisk have absolutely nothing to do with NAND architecture. They are general, broad patents that cover 3D memory architecture as a whole.
floating gate is a variation of charge trap, it uses an isolated gate to store electrons instead of a capacitive bank.
"3D NAND" is all charge store (flash) based architecture, they all use the same principle as a capacitor memory bank.

on the other hand, XPoint uses a whole different approach, it uses resistive properties of the material to store data, it has nothing to do with storing electrons.

i'm starting to believe that you know nothing in this field.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganf View Post

It's the fact that Intel and Micron got around those 3D memory architecture patents that has me surprised. That's like building a house without a foundation. If they had to pull a single patent license from Sandisk I promise you Sandisk would have pushed the 3D NAND branding license on them as part of the deal.

The fact that it's part PCM and part Memristor doesn't matter at all. It's 3D memory, and Sandisk has the lion's share of patents in that market, and they also have the most fundamental and valuable patents. Making 3D memory of any architecture design without using at least a couple of the patents owned by Sandisk is like building a Swiss watch without gears.

it does not matter whether sandisk covers any patent regarding 3D stacking, even samsung even has V-NAND working, same goes with AMD's HBM, so why is XPoint any different?
Edited by epic1337 - 6/2/16 at 11:25am
post #78 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

floating gate is a variation of charge trap, it uses an isolated gate to store electrons instead of a capacitive bank.
"3D NAND" is all charge store (flash) based architecture, they all use the same principle as a capacitor memory bank.

on the other hand, XPoint uses a whole different approach, it uses resistive properties of the material to store data, it has nothing to do with storing electrons.
it does not matter whether sandisk covers any patent regarding 3D stacking, even samsung even has V-NAND working, same goes with AMD's HBM, XPoint is a whole different field.

i'm starting to believe that you know nothing in this field.

Not even discussing that. A floating gate and charge trap are distinct enough to be able to differentiate a set of patents by. Pretty damn easily, as a matter of fact. I was pointing out that even though Hynix uses something that from a patent perspective is funadmentally different, they still couldn't get away from Sandisks licenses.

The issue is not what is different and how different it is, it is what Sandisks patents cover. I don't care if the information is stored by nano-scale cockatoos sliding beads on an abacus, to date if it was done in 3D it fell under Sandisks patents and the fact that Intel and Micron got around those is the important point.
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post #79 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganf View Post

Not even discussing that. A floating gate and charge trap are distinct enough to be able to differentiate a set of patents by. Pretty damn easily, as a matter of fact. I was pointing out that even though Hynix uses something that from a patent perspective is funadmentally different, they still couldn't get away from Sandisks licenses.

The issue is not what is different and how different it is, it is what Sandisks patents cover. I don't care if the information is stored by nano-scale cockatoos sliding beads on an abacus, to date if it was done in 3D it fell under Sandisks patents and the fact that Intel and Micron got around those is the important point.

why do you even bring up sandisk's patent everytime i bring up the fact that XPoint architecture has nothing to do with NAND flash architecture?
XPoint doesn't even operate using a negative-AND logic state like all NAND flash architecture does.
Edited by epic1337 - 6/2/16 at 11:36am
post #80 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

RAID0 and more NAND controller channels is the same thing though.
even functionally they're practically the same, with minimal differences in how they operate.

e.g. a 4channel controller will have 4 NAND packages, an 8channel controller will have 8 NAND packages.
with this in mind, a RAID0 SSD with 4channel controller will have 8 NAND packages in total.

However, with RAID 0, you have a controller with two channels communicating to controllers with 4 channels each, so you get additional latency of the intermediate controller.
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