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[Techspot] Samsung's new 512GB solid state drive is impossibly tiny - Page 9

post #81 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

why do you even bring up sandisk's patent everytime i bring up the fact that XPoint architecture has nothing to do with NAND flash architecture?

Because you aren't following what I've been saying for about 20 posts.

A lot of architectures that get put under the 3D NAND umbrella could have easily been labeled as a different 3D memory entirely, it would have been in those company's best interest to label their products as distinctly different from their competitors', and through that distinction emphasized their advantages over the competition, yet they got pushed as 3D NAND. The only unifying factor that coincides with all of them choosing to market as 3D NAND is Sandisk.

Yet Sandisk doesn't even own the NAND architecture, so if the truly unifying point between all of these architectures was NAND architectures, and not 3D memory architectures which is what Sandisk owns, it would be Toshiba playing that card. Get it?
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post #82 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganf View Post

Because you aren't following what I've been saying for about 20 posts.

A lot of architectures that get put under the 3D NAND umbrella could have easily been labeled as a different 3D memory entirely, it would have been in those company's best interest to label their products as distinctly different from their competitors', and through that distinction emphasized their advantages over the competition, yet they got pushed as 3D NAND. The only unifying factor that coincides with all of them choosing to market as 3D NAND is Sandisk.

Yet Sandisk doesn't even own the NAND architecture, so if the truly unifying point between all of these architectures was NAND architectures, and not 3D memory architectures which is what Sandisk owns, it would be Toshiba playing that card. Get it?

yes what does that have to do with me saying XPoint architecture is not NAND flash architecture?
you're the one complicating this as my primary point is that XPoint architecture is not NAND flash architecture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

i'm pretty sure it wasn't NAND-type that they were talking about, more like a non-volatile DRAM substitute.

the initial topic was "intel is developing an on-die storage chip" which is XPoint.

i said XPoint isn't a NAND-type achitecture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsumi View Post

However, with RAID 0, you have a controller with two channels communicating to controllers with 4 channels each, so you get additional latency of the intermediate controller.
well yes, but i was talking about the probability of failure.
if he says that RAID0 is much less reliable than RAID1+0/5/6 SSD on a single package, then its not really the case.
since technically, all SSDs already uses redundant backups to take over worn-out NAND dies, much like RAID5/6.
Edited by epic1337 - 6/2/16 at 11:55am
post #83 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

yes what does that have to do with me saying XPoint architecture is not NAND flash architecture?
you're the one complicating this as my primary point is that XPoint architecture is not NAND flash architecture.

Not NAND. We started out discussing whether it was "3D" NAND.

The "3D" part is owned by Sandisk, Xpoint is still a 3D memory architecture. Having patents over 3D memory architectures as a whole is much more powerful than having patents over the NAND architecture in this regard, as evidenced by the fact that Sandisk doesn't even own the NAND architecture yet everyone wanting to make 3D NAND has to sign license agreements with Sandisk, not Toshiba.

See how the heirarchy works? So if I want to make 3D memory of any variety, typically I have to go to Sandisk and ask for the licenses to make 3D memory. At that point they have me by the corporate balls and can slip anything short of mass murder into the license agreement and I have to accept it if I want to make anything at all, including marketing my product under the 3D NAND umbrella even if it is physically distinct from NAND and I want my own branding

Bottom line: Both 3D NAND and Xpoint are 3D memory architectures, and that's what I was pointing out. The fact that they're distinct architectures is moot, because 3D memory is the prioritizing category both from a performance perspective and a patent perspective.

Edit: And yes, I made the mistake of assuming that I was talking to someone who wouldn't know the difference between 3D memory and 3D NAND and made a generalization. You can take that point.
Edited by Ganf - 6/2/16 at 12:06pm
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post #84 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganf View Post

Not NAND. We started out discussing whether it was "3D" NAND.

thinking.gif not sure if joking...

though even if it was "3D" theres still quite a bit of variations in the overall 3D Memory architectures.
we have 3D-XPoint, V-NAND, 3D-NAND, HBM, and that other 3D RAM that i forgot its called HMC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganf View Post

Bottom line: Both 3D NAND and Xpoint are 3D memory architectures, and that's what I was pointing out. The fact that they're distinct architectures is moot, because 3D memory is the prioritizing category both from a performance perspective and a patent perspective.
XPoint is 3D Memory, it is not 3D NAND.
much like HBM is not 3D NAND, yet HBM is 3D Memory.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganf View Post

Edit: And yes, I made the mistake of assuming that I was talking to someone who wouldn't know the difference between 3D memory and 3D NAND and made a generalization. You can take that point.

aren't you the one who can't even discern between 3D Memory and 3D NAND as if it was interchangeable?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganf View Post

Xpoint is a 3D NAND that they're labeling as non-volatile.

Ask and you shall receive.


edit: i've been looking into 3D XPoint's patents whether it infringes with Sandisk's 3D NAND patent, so far theres nothing.
this indicates that 3D XPoint is not 3D NAND, and 3D XPoint is a whole different architecture.

it does however falls under the cross point patents:
https://www.google.com/patents/EP1659593A2?cl=pt-PT
http://www.google.com.na/patents/EP2048713A2?cl=es
http://www.google.ch/patents/US20030206481
which is clearly not a 3D NAND patent.
Edited by epic1337 - 6/2/16 at 12:49pm
post #85 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

thinking.gif not sure if joking...

though even if it was "3D" theres still quite a bit of variations in the overall 3D Memory architectures.
we have 3D-XPoint, V-NAND, 3D-NAND, HBM, and that other 3D RAM that i forgot its called HMC.
XPoint is 3D Memory, it is not 3D NAND.
much like HBM is not 3D NAND, yet HBM is 3D Memory.
aren't you the one who can't even discern between 3D Memory and 3D NAND as if it was interchangeable?

3D V-NAND, not just V-NAND. wink.gif

Also I think HMC is just the early term for Xpoint. Intel/Micron has stopped talking about HMC, which was also their pet project, and started talking exclusively about Xpoint. Either that or Xpoint is Intel's slice of the JV pie and Micron is getting HMC as their slice.

HBM is a DRAM variant, as is HMC. Neither are labeled as 3D but now that you've pointed it out I just realized that Intel has labeled X-point as 3D more often than they have not. It never stood out to me before.

Something to poke around about. I may have been closer to the mark about the "3D" part than I initially thought.
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post #86 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganf View Post

Something to poke around about. I may have been closer to the mark about the "3D" part than I initially thought.

exactly, "3D" is more of a blanket term for anything that stacks vertically, it could even work for CPUs if only heat wasn't an issue.
as for "3D NAND" its more of those NAND packages that were designed with a stacked architecture, so far theres only two common types of NAND and those are charge-trap NAND and floating gate NAND.

the other "3D" architectures however are quite different, HBM is obviously a 3D stacked DRAM, HMC was supposedly also a 3D stacked DRAM, and 3D XPoint is a 3D stacked ReRAM/PRAM hybrid.
further down the road theres also crossbar ram, which is a full blown 3D stacked ReRAM.
Edited by epic1337 - 6/2/16 at 12:59pm
post #87 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

exactly, "3D" is more of a blanket term for anything that stacks vertically.
as for "3D NAND" its more of those NAND packages that were designed with a stacked architecture, so far theres only two common types of NAND and those are charge-trap NAND and floating gate NAND.

the other "3D" architectures however are quite different, HBM is obviously a 3D stacked DRAM, HMC was supposedly also a 3D stacked DRAM, and 3D XPoint is a 3D stacked RRAM/PRAM hybrid.

Not was, HMC is a stacked DRAM, and looks like it's being offered by Micron in 2 and 4 gb versions B2B right now.

https://www.micron.com/products/hybrid-memory-cube

So Intel got the non-volatile results of the JV, and Micron got the volatile results. So far all non-volatile stacked memory types have been specifically labelled 3D, and all volatile memory types are not.
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post #88 of 93
they're probably using "3D" to give it an emphasis in architectural edge, albeit its quite redundant on some cases.
obviously some could make-do without it, XPoint by itself is already a stacked uarch, as theres no planar version of it.
Edited by epic1337 - 6/2/16 at 1:07pm
post #89 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

they're probably using "3D" to give it an emphasis in architectural edge, albeit its quite redundant on some cases.
obviously some could make-do without it, XPoint by itself is already a stacked uarch, as theres no planar version of it.

I'd buy the emphasis point if AMD was calling HBM 3D HBM.

Have you ever known AMD not to take a marketing shtick and run it into the ground if it were available? tongue.gif

Looking over some of the patents just out of curiosity. Matrix's patents tend to cover DRAM and Flash specifically which would leave Intel to do as they please except Sandisk later filed several similar patents that covered much of the same principles in 3D memory but used the term "Semiconductor Memory" which covers chalcogenides, so Intel is using something else to dodge Sandisks patents.

I really want to know why there seems to be a divide now.
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post #90 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganf View Post

I really want to know why there seems to be a divide now.

its because the former memory architectures are mostly either floating gate or charge trap.
NAND logic state only started after NOR logic state had been phased out.

this has been the case for more than a decade, thus there wasn't much to differentiate.
now they've been coming up with actual technologies that can replace charge traps or floating gate NAND architectures.
under the patent system, they can bypass them by emphasizing that they aren't a type of NAND architecture, thus patents regarding the other types of architectures surfaced.
and strictly speaking, they can't patent "3D" stacking technology by itself as it covers other existing patents, so they can only submit a vague "3D semiconductor memory" patent.
Edited by epic1337 - 6/2/16 at 1:39pm
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