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Tcase of the FX line and AMD Non-Disclosure Agreement - Page 2

post #11 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlailScHLAMP View Post

Because the T-case temperature Cannot be read, there is NOTHING to read it from.

The whole construction core family is like this. there are no Thermal diodes in this series.

There is a thermal diode:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1134229/amd-cpus-max-temps/410#post_24527554

Quote:
Originally Posted by Contiusa View Post

Overdrive is a sort of mobile app, something for people who owns a tablet and would never touch a hardware or open a case. If the Overdrive has a threshold, of course they have a Tcase, and why they don't disclose this Tcase? And then people go around in forumns and are kept in the dark and people say "I think", "it should".

Secrecy does not seem to be the right way to promote the market. The level of disinformation / missinformation does not help either. this is what I call giving a shot in the foot.

I wrote back to AMD asking why the NDA.

EDIT: I say Tcase max. This is what I asked the rep:
Just to make sure what they don't want to disclose.

Overdrive is the not a mobile application, it is the official AMD software overclocking application and it shows thermal margin, because for practical purposes, that's what overclockers need to know. The tCTl is a non celsius scale temperature. AMD has given an algorithm to software developers, that from tctl allows to report "core temp" in Celsius. Because of this conversion, the thermal margin becomes accurate for core temps above 40C. For practical reasons, thermal margin= 70-core temp.

People have been overclocking these CPUs since 2012. For practical purposes, the best advice is to keep core temp and cpu temp below 70C.

I have no insight about TCasemax's usefulness for practical purposes, Stilt has explained everything on the matter, i am trying to write it down in easily understandable terms.
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post #12 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Stilt View Post

Do note that the motherboard manufacturers can and usually will alter the tCTLMax limit. When increased from stock (70) it will "increase" the thermal margin, since tCTL itself doesn't reflect these changes.

From what you are saying, it reminds me of a tutorial explaining the low temps of AMD Overdrive saying that you need to subtract the margin of Overdrive from the tCTLMax shown in the motherboard. Won't link because it is in Portuguese. In this tutorial, AIDA64 shows a tCTLMax of 80ºC. Then it makes more sense, since my FX-6300 reaches 33ºC running OCCT with Linpack (IIRC) and room temperature of 25ºC. My CPU cooler is a Zalman 9900 NT. If my motherboard has a higher tCTLMax would make more sense.

Is this the source of all the misinformation running around? When people say that you need to convert the values? The thing is -- looks like very few people know this (what is tCTLMax), and then, in the case of this tutorial, people assume the TcaseMax is 80ºC for the FX-6300. From what you are saying, this tCTLMax can vary from motherboard to motherboard, right? If so, AMD Overdrive is useless to show temp values?

But will the Overdrive margin still be valid as a reference?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undervolter View Post

Overdrive is the not a mobile application, it is the official AMD software overclocking application and it shows thermal margin, because for practical purposes, that's what overclockers need to know.

What I said above is more or less the reason why I pejoratively said that AMD Overdrive is a "mobile app". If all this is right, you get not only dependant on AMD Overdrive, but you can't have a value, just a graphic going up and down. You can't calculate an average for testing purposes, for example. Then it is a sort of gimmick that tells, "You're getting hot!" It seems to have little value to me other that say that my CPU is getting hot.

But I was reading in another thread that when overclocking an Intel, the TcaseMax ceases to have a value. How so? When the ocing community says a value, let's suppose 75-80ºC for Ivy Bridge, are they taking into consideration the Tcase of the processor or not?
post #13 of 26
Im pretty sure both Intel (Intel Ark) and AMD list the max temps for their CPU's by model. Maybe i'm over simplifying this but just look up the max temp and dont go over it

ex:
http://products.amd.com/en-us/search/CPU/AMD-FX-Series/AMD-FX-8-Core-Black-Edition/FX-8320E/102

MAX TEMPS 70.50° C
post #14 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Contiusa View Post

From what you are saying, it reminds me of a tutorial explaining the low temps of AMD Overdrive saying that you need to subtract the margin of Overdrive from the tCTLMax shown in the motherboard. Won't link because it is in Portuguese. In this tutorial, AIDA64 shows a tCTLMax of 80ºC. Then it makes more sense, since my FX-6300 reaches 33ºC running OCCT with Linpack (IIRC) and room temperature of 25ºC. My CPU cooler is a Zalman 9900 NT. If my motherboard has a higher tCTLMax would make more sense.

Is this the source of all the misinformation running around? When people say that you need to convert the values? The thing is -- looks like very few people know this (what is tCTLMax), and then, in the case of this tutorial, people assume the TcaseMax is 80ºC for the FX-6300. From what you are saying, this tCTLMax can vary from motherboard to motherboard, right? If so, AMD Overdrive is useless to show temp values?

But will the Overdrive margin still be valid as a reference?
What I said above is more or less the reason why I pejoratively said that AMD Overdrive is a "mobile app". If all this is right, you get not only dependant on AMD Overdrive, but you can't have a value, just a graphic going up and down. You can't calculate an average for testing purposes, for example. Then it is a sort of gimmick that tells, "You're getting hot!" It seems to have little value to me other that say that my CPU is getting hot.

But I was reading in another thread that when overclocking an Intel, the TcaseMax ceases to have a value. How so? When the ocing community says a value, let's suppose 75-80ºC for Ivy Bridge, are they taking into consideration the Tcase of the processor or not?

AOD is the only program which display a thermal margin (tCTLMax - tCTL). The weakness of this method is that tCTLMax can be altered and the "thermal margin" can be artificially increased this way. Most programs like AIDA64, display tCTL directly. Changing tCTLMax doesn't affect tCTL so it is a better way to represent the value. All 15h AMD desktop parts have the same tCTLMax, 70 units.

tCTL < tCTLMax (70) = Normal operation
tCTL >= tCTLMax (70) = Thermal control active, OTP
post #15 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zer0CoolX View Post

Im pretty sure both Intel (Intel Ark) and AMD list the max temps for their CPU's by model. Maybe i'm over simplifying this but just look up the max temp and dont go over it

ex:
http://products.amd.com/en-us/search/CPU/AMD-FX-Series/AMD-FX-8-Core-Black-Edition/FX-8320E/102

MAX TEMPS 70.50° C

Isn't that new? I have looked before and I never saw temps on the FX specs. From all I know, foruns always discuss the temps. If there was one, I think no one would argue about. Or maybe I am mistaken.

Anyway, the reading is still off and I am trying to understand the readings on software's like HWmonitor, AIDA64, etc.
post #16 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Contiusa View Post


What I said above is more or less the reason why I pejoratively said that AMD Overdrive is a "mobile app". If all this is right, you get not only dependant on AMD Overdrive, but you can't have a value, just a graphic going up and down. You can't calculate an average for testing purposes, for example. Then it is a sort of gimmick that tells, "You're getting hot!" It seems to have little value to me other that say that my CPU is getting hot.

But I was reading in another thread that when overclocking an Intel, the TcaseMax ceases to have a value. How so? When the ocing community says a value, let's suppose 75-80ºC for Ivy Bridge, are they taking into consideration the Tcase of the processor or not?

Personally, i don't like the thermal margin thing, i don't like Overdrive either, which is why i use other monitoring software, that shows "core" or "package" temp, which is, as i said, basically the same thing seen from the opposite side. So, as long as your core temp is lower than 70C, you 're good. But i am no overclocker, so i don't know what more you want or why you would need to use average values...Most overclockers here care about not killing the chip. So as long as they are below 70C core temp (or package), it's all they need. Basically, at core temp 70C, your thermal margin in Overdrive would be 0C. Or at core temp 60C, your thermal margin is 10C. So i prefer not using Overdrive and use other software that shows package/core temp, because at the end, they give the same information.

Stilt is the one for more theoretical discussions about this or about more unique requirements.
Edited by Undervolter - 6/3/16 at 12:13pm
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post #17 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undervolter View Post

Personally, i don't like the thermal margin thing, i don't like Overdrive either, which is why i use other monitoring software, that shows "core" or "package" temp, which is, as i said, basically the same thing seen from the opposite side. So, as long as your core temp is lower than 70C, you 're good. But i am no overclocker, so i don't know what more you want or why you would need to use average values...Most overclockers here care about not killing the chip. So as long as they are below 70C core temp (or package), it's all they need. Basically, at core temp 70C, your thermal margin in Overdrive would be 0C. Or at core temp 60C, your thermal margin is 10C. So i prefer not using Overdrive and use other software that shows package/core temp, because at the end, they give the same information.

Stilt is the one for more theoretical discussions about this or about more unique requirements.

Cool, but the other monitoring software seems to need a conversion using the tCTLMax shown in the motherboard. It I take only the value shown in HWmonitor for example, makes no sense, since it gets 33ºC running OCCT with 25ºC or room temperature.

I think this is the source of all the misunderstandings.
post #18 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Contiusa View Post

Cool, but the other monitoring software seems to need a conversion using the tCTLMax shown in the motherboard. It I take only the value shown in HWmonitor for example, makes no sense, since it gets 33ºC running OCCT with 25ºC or room temperature.

I think this is the source of all the misunderstandings.

In HWMonitor you should have 2 temperatures related to the CPU:
- The CPU temp (which is the same as CPU temp in BIOS and it's from the thermal diode i mentioned in post #11, linking to Stilt's post).
- The package temp, which is what HWmonitor calls the "core temp". So if you are at 33C, it means you have 37C thermal margin in Overdrive. The catch, is what i had written in earlier post. Because the tclt is translated into core temp in Celsius through an algorithm that AMD gave, the reading isn't accurate for temps below 40C (it's a limitation of the algorithm). This is why at idle, you can have the core temp (alias "package" in HWmonitor) inferior to your ambient temperature (which is impossible). Once your core temp exceeds 40C, then your reading is accurate. The core temp is usually lower than the CPU temp is pretty much all motherboards. Also, Gigabyte motherboards run quite cool in the CPU area (contrary to 970 models from Asrock and MSI). The core temp tends to become equal to the CPU temp, at least on my GIgabyte, at high clocks (at around 4.5 it's about the same).

So if you have 33C core temp in HWMonitor when you run OCCT, well, the reading is a bit lower than it should, but it's a limitation of the algorithm. The main point is that you have still ample thermal margin up to 70C. When you hit 40C, it becomes accurate. The CPU temp on the other hand, isn't calculated by algorithm, so what you see is what you get always.

So the rule of thumb is: As long as your core temp (or package) and your CPU temp are below 70C, you 're good. Many prefer to leave some safety margin.
Edited by Undervolter - 6/3/16 at 12:46pm
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post #19 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Contiusa View Post

Isn't that new? I have looked before and I never saw temps on the FX specs. From all I know, foruns always discuss the temps. If there was one, I think no one would argue about. Or maybe I am mistaken.

Anyway, the reading is still off and I am trying to understand the readings on software's like HWmonitor, AIDA64, etc.

Im pretty sure AMD has had this information up for a while. In my opinion it is much harder to find then in Intel ARK, but its been there.

As to why people argue about it, because some people make stuff up instead of looking it up and thus misinformation spreads. People are people, even if the information was blatantly obvious some people would still find a way to argue about it.

Not sure about your readings tho, HWMonitor has worked well for me but I havent had AMD for a long time.
post #20 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zer0CoolX View Post

Not sure about your readings tho, HWMonitor has worked well for me but I havent had AMD for a long time.

HWmonitor and HWinfo64 are way off not only for my FX-6300 but for others as well. Mine reaches 33ºC with OCCT Linpack (the one that produces more heat) and my room temperature is 25ºC. It makes no sense. Lots of people, including me, with idle temperatures below 10-15ºC room temperature. From what Stilt said, looks like you need to convert the readings of WHmonitor according to the tCTLMax of your motherboard -- I came to this conclusion, don't take it for granted.

In other words, unless you know how to convert the data, HWmonitor, AIDA64 and so on so forth are useless for the FX line (don't know about the APUs). From what I have seen, not a lot of people know this and they mostly assume either the chip or the software is bugged. Not to mention that you can't see the true values in real time, unless the difference is an even number like 10ºC, then if you see 15ºC you just assume it is 25ºC.
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