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post #141 of 312
Servers already process at 60 Hz. It's the client that updates at 20 Hz.

If you watched the video they put out, they explain this all in detail. And, even if they did increase the tick rate on the client, that would only reduce the kind of events people whine about by 25%. Meaning three quarters of them would still happen.

Even if you had an infinite tick rate, perfect zero-latency processing, you'd STILL have the events people whine about, because network latency still exists and what you see as far as incoming fire isn't actually true. Until people actually accept that, no discussion of tick rates and server architectures will ever be productive. The entire discussion is focusing on the wrong things, because "20 tick is bad, 60 tick is good" is just simple enough for people to understand and regurgitate. None of them are interested in actually understanding how Overwatch's netcode actually works, how the events they whine about happen and why, and what the alternative to Favor the Shooter really is.

And no, it's not as simple as saying Blizzard is "too cheap." I'd like to think that nearly twenty years of free online gaming on Battle.net, when many people weren't putting out a system anywhere near as good, would put to bed the idea of Blizzard being cheap. I guess not, though, because "It's Popular, So It Sucks."
post #142 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomDash View Post

I'm not even implying that LoL is imbalanced, I wouldn't know, I was just implying that people could blame it as such unless you're playing the same characters the match is technically not on even footing. I'm just saying Overwatch and games like it are good for a lot of people who would like to live in denial.

But are they? I'm just saying that you wont get bothered by people in denial by refraining from playing these games, but I see plenty people in 1v1 pvp games who look for excuses. Or in pve games. Really in any genre of any game.

I find the additional layer of complexity in higher playercount to add an enjoyable element, personally. Sure, that's 1 more element you can blame your errors on. But even in tic tac toe you will find people complain about balance, so I wouldn't worry too much about one or two more variables, people who want to live in denial will happily do so in the games they individually enjoy.

edit: What's a game that features perfect 'even footing' anyway?
Edited by Tivan - 6/13/16 at 10:44am
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post #143 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tivan View Post

But are they? I'm just saying that you wont get bothered by people in denial by refraining from playing these games, but I see plenty people in 1v1 pvp games who look for excuses. Or in pve games. Really in any genre of any game.

I find the additional layer of complexity in higher playercount to add an enjoyable element, personally. Sure, that's 1 more element you can blame your errors on. But even in tic tac toe you will find people complain about balance, so I wouldn't worry too much about one or two more variables, people who want to live in denial will happily do so in the games they individually enjoy.

I like to live in denial that having to shoot at open air in order to register a hit is a superior way of implementing netcode. That's the alternative to Favor the Shooter. There isn't another.
post #144 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

I like to live in denial that having to shoot at open air in order to register a hit is a superior way of implementing netcode. That's the alternative to Favor the Shooter. There isn't another.

Ah I see, yeah I actually like projectiles coded as skillshots. It's pretty fun seriously. There was this game called Fantasy Earth Zero a while ago, it actually had some of that. Also 500 ping in combat (while out of combat it'd settle at 300 for some reason). It was still pretty fun despite that major flaw!

Or I guess bloodline champions vaguely qualifies as well for everything being server sided skillshots. But yeah different characters inherently bring asynchronous gameplay.

I guess it's the CS(:GO) leadership position that brings us those favor the shooter models, then again the main appeal of that game is to look at lan events (and casual shenanigans) anyway, at least to me. But the model does take away some predictability of your own position in some situations (given the shooter can dictate that your position is a couple hundred MS delayed if they are, by registering a hit), so that's not so cool.

Then again LoL and most mobas have a thoroughly server sided model, even for the point and click abilities. So while they maintain the asynchronous combat aspect, at least they don't have the local client favoring stuff going.

But having a different character because you picked it, is arguably not as bad for individual accountability as is getting a worse spawn randomly in a pickup based game. Just saying, people will pick their scapegoats whatever the game. I do now see that Overwatch might have a pretty glaring issue with hit registration though, thanks for pointing that out!
Edited by Tivan - 6/13/16 at 10:59am
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post #145 of 312
how many of these players are on pc though? i was considering buying this but the demo i played was pretty much a tf2 ripoff.
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post #146 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tivan View Post

But are they? I'm just saying that you wont get bothered by people in denial by refraining from playing these games, but I see plenty people in 1v1 pvp games who look for excuses. Or in pve games. Really in any genre of any game.

I find the additional layer of complexity in higher playercount to add an enjoyable element, personally. Sure, that's 1 more element you can blame your errors on. But even in tic tac toe you will find people complain about balance, so I wouldn't worry too much about one or two more variables, people who want to live in denial will happily do so in the games they individually enjoy.

edit: What's a game that features perfect 'even footing' anyway?

Quake 3 Arena.

Honestly I'm not against games having differences, but when you add a team to it you increase the odds of randomness IMO. I just prefer a FFA style system or 1v1 setting for my games, and I'm admitting that's just my preference. I also didn't say Overwatch doesn't have skill, isn't fun, and doesn't have people that are in denial, I just think majority of people that look for denial games would love it.
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post #147 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomDash View Post

but when you add a team to it you increase the odds of randomness IMO.

Definitely. But is poker not quite random? There's just a new set of skills you need to develop around it. Consistency over a huge sample size of games.

But yeah, if you make a game that's trying to appeal to the biggest possible audience, you'll attract people who don't enjoy taking responsibility for each and every misstep they take, too. Not disagreeing with that!

At the end of the day, it's about playing the games that one enjoys, for the kinds of prefered challenges they offer, I guess. smile.gif (And I'm not too fond of the kinds of challenges that blizzard has been offering predominantly in their recent games, myself.)
Edited by Tivan - 6/13/16 at 11:35am
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post #148 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

Servers already process at 60 Hz. It's the client that updates at 20 Hz.

I watched it, maybe you should Re-Watch it and Re-Read my comment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dargonplay View Post

If Blizzard upgrades their server into a 60Hz receive model, ideally it should have 128Hz symmetrical Tick Rate, but we know Blizzard is too cheap for that.

Having 60Hz update TickRate (Basically making OUR machines works the hardest instead of their server) does absolutely nothing if the Receive Tick Rate in our clients is 20Hz, Nothing for the end user which is who is playing and watching the screen, it only works for the game's movement prediction algorithm which is to say the least, bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

And, even if they did increase the tick rate on the client, that would only reduce the kind of events people whine about by 25%.

So the TickRate is absolutely atrocious and your idea is that they shouldn't bother making it it any less atrocious? Your logic is as flawed as your understanding of this matter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

Even if you had an infinite tick rate, perfect zero-latency processing, you'd STILL have the events people whine about, because network latency still exists and what you see as far as incoming fire isn't actually true.

If I had an infinite tick rate and Perfect Zero Latency this means that I'd be receiving my Network Latency as a delay, which is exponentially better than what we have now, I don't see anyone complaining about this when Battlefield 4 Launched with one of the worst netcodes, but after so much polishing, many optimizations and up to 120Hz Tickrate (From 20Hz) it now has one of the best Netcodes, currently rivaling CS:GO, people no longer complain about this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

Until people actually accept that, no discussion of tick rates and server architectures will ever be productive.

It is undoubtedly not productive when it's coming from you. People debated this on Battlefield 4 forums, Twitter, everywhere and that's how BF4 Community Test Environment came to be, Battlefield 4 is 10 times the game it was at launch now, thanks to those discussions made by people like LevelCap, Battle(Non)sense and the community that you deem as unproductive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

I like to live in denial that having to shoot at open air in order to register a hit is a superior way of implementing netcode. That's the alternative to Favor the Shooter. There isn't another.

Favor the shooter is OK, nobody is arguing that but yourself, I like it but don't fool yourself saying there aren't other ways to do the same, like Client Side Reg with Server Validation/Authentication Reg, which ends up being as smooth but with the added benefit of no "Tick Rate Kills" and the downside of more expensive dedicated servers for Blizzard.

the thing is, to have a "Favor the shooter" system you do need precise information, that is the least outdated as possible. To have a good "Favor the shooter" system you'd ideally use a Tick Rate of at least 128Hz Symmetrical, since favor the shooter system does not take into account any other variable but the place where the enemy shooting at you sees you on screen, it is of crucial importance that the Tick Rate can work at a Very High Rate to make sure the information the player shooting at you gets is the least outdated as possible.

Those games you're talking about, where you have to shoot at open air no longer exist, they dwindled down and disappeared after after Halo Combat Evolved when we figured out better ways to do it, which includes but isn't limited to Client Side Reg/Favor the Shooter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

And no, it's not as simple as saying Blizzard is "too cheap." I'd like to think that nearly twenty years of free online gaming on Battle.net, when many people weren't putting out a system anywhere near as good, would put to bed the idea of Blizzard being cheap. I guess not, though, because "It's Popular, So It Sucks."

What's so especial about Battle.net? I've played Blizzard games since Warcraft III and I like their games, the reason I criticize them is because I enjoy their games, otherwise I'd not spend my time talking about them. Blizzard have earned so much money with World of Warcraft, they raised Warlords of Draenor expansion Price by 10$, they raised Subscription Fees in many parts of the world, and they added Microtransactions, all of this for an expansion with 1 single Content Patch that was already Under-Delivering with its actual Expansion Content.

There was a time long ago where I would have agreed with you on Blizzard being the best Gaming Company there is, when they cared about their playerbase more than their shareholders, when they strived for Quality beyond anything else, I watched their "Core Beliefs" and "Core Values" with tenderness, translated into virtual worlds in the TBC Era and I almost dropped a tear because I could feel that passion through their games.

That Blizzard is no more.





Raise the price beyond any other expansion, reduce the content to 1/4 the size of previous expansions, take out spells you can't bother to balance, take out dungeons, zones, and the Gladiator's Trials because of "Reasons" and I get the vibe they're being cheap.

You can white Knight them all day, that wont change a thing, also don't even get me started on how much more money they're getting now out of 4 million players compared to 12 Million Players with Microtransactions and Tokens.
Edited by Dargonplay - 6/13/16 at 1:56pm
post #149 of 312
I am really enjoying the game so far. $40 for hours of fun? Sign me up. thumb.gif
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post #150 of 312
Dargonplay, please don't put words into my mouth. I never said it's not worth fixing, only that it isn't the panacea that people think it to be. Don't speak for me.

Battle.net is special because it formed the origin of modern online gaming. The idea of an online system as a platform, that didn't require a direct connection between individuals set up for each match, was something that was completely new. The fact that they gave that away, for free, was a huge deal at the time. Games like Starcraft paved the way, and they did it running servers without charging us a dime. Other companies eventually followed suit, with several of them charging for the privilege of online play using their platform. Blizzard never has, with the exception of World of Warcraft which is a different matter entirely being a MMO. But for Starcraft, Warcraft 3, Diablo 2, Starcraft 2, Diablo 3, and now Overwatch, having a convenient, easy system for online play for completely 100% free that they maintain for decades after the game launch is no small expenditure, and should be a rather large counterargument to them being "cheap."

As far as why they didn't have full 60 tick from the very start for Overwatch, I have to credit that to inexperience in the genre rather than any malicious or abnormally money-stingy behavior. This is their first FPS, and they will make some mistakes. This is probably one of them, but it's nowhere close to the storm of controversy that people have turned it into. "20 tick, 20 tick, all my problems are because of 20 tick" is a common refrain, and it simply doesn't reflect the reality of the situation.

I am all for them improving the tick rate. But there is a tremendous amount of misinformation floating around, and I attempt to clean it up. Because if people whine badly about something they don't understand, that makes it harder for Blizzard to take the complaint seriously, because it's not a serious complaint. But, tick rate should be, so it's important that everyone get how the system actually works correctly before providing feedback on it.

Make no mistake: I am not saying it's not a problem. I am saying it's not as big a problem as people think it is, and that the proposed solution won't be as effective as people think it will be. It seems important to point out that last bit in particular, because the last thing that Blizzard wants is for them to implement 60 tick rate across the board, for all games, and have people come back and whine still because they understood neither the problem nor the solution.
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