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post #161 of 312
While people can argue about skill ceilings til they die of old age, the simple fact is that most of blizzards recent titles cater to casual gamers. Hearthstone, Overwatch, and Heroes of the storm are all probably the most casual games in their respective genres. While they certainly still have an opportunity for people to be much better than others denying that these games lower the ability to showcase individual talent seems to be just a fact.

I have played all of these games and their direct competition and it just seems fairly obvious.

League of Legends at least 7000 games played
Dota 2 over 2000 hrs played
Magic the gathering years played
Never played TF2, but have played 2000hrs of CSGO, close to that number of hours of COD MW2 and COD MW, Tons of BF BC2.
In all of these games you can go on you tube or twitch and see people make outstanding plays involving aim, games sense, weapon switching, cool down management etc. Then you watch an overwatch play of the game that is mccree pre-flashing out of a doorway because he has widow ult up, and then gets a double kill with fan the hammer. very impressive.

I do like the game for playing with friends, and I have over fifty hours in it currently. This game is great for what it is and that is the most casual fps in existence.
post #162 of 312
So if you take one game and play it normally and then add "cheat" would that mean the game with "cheat" has lower skill ceiling? People forget that in Overwatch both you and the enemy have the "cheat".
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post #163 of 312
Of course it does. If you take two different people and have them both playing soldier 76 with their ultimate up and they flank behind three people you are going to get the exact same outcome no matter how good they are at shooter games. They are going to press q and hold down left click and the three enemies die. Now do that same scenario with an ultimate that does not take the human factor out of the equation, such as having a bottomless clip on your rifle for 10 seconds. A good aimer/ fps player will aim for heads burst fire to control recoil and still get all three kills, a low skill player will hold left click down lose accuracy and may not kill anyone. Blizzard wants everyone to have their moment to feel like a god so they design this way so that everyone can have that warm feeling of being an all star.
post #164 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by AvatarOfWoe666 View Post

Of course it does. If you take two different people and have them both playing soldier 76 with their ultimate up and they flank behind three people you are going to get the exact same outcome no matter how good they are at shooter games. They are going to press q and hold down left click and the three enemies die. Now do that same scenario with an ultimate that does not take the human factor out of the equation, such as having a bottomless clip on your rifle for 10 seconds. A good aimer/ fps player will aim for heads burst fire to control recoil and still get all three kills, a low skill player will hold left click down lose accuracy and may not kill anyone. Blizzard wants everyone to have their moment to feel like a god so they design this way so that everyone can have that warm feeling of being an all star.

The ultimate ability isn't always up, so it doesn't even change the skill needed to play that class. If you can't aim except when the ultimate is up, you aren't going to help your team much.

Again, not a single one of your argument addresses skill ceiling. A skill ceiling would mean there is no room for improvement via gameplay.

What you are actually talking about is skill floor, or the minimum skill required to "play" the class. Widowmaker is going to have a higher "floor" than winston, because you will be completely useless until you can hit something with the sniper. Still, just because Winston doesn't have to aim doesn't mean a skilled player won't be insanely more effective than a less skilled player.

Overwatch has overall a lower skill floor than TF2, making it easier for casuals to get in to, but the skill cap is just as high.
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post #165 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by AvatarOfWoe666 View Post

While people can argue about skill ceilings til they die of old age, the simple fact is that most of blizzards recent titles cater to casual gamers.

The fault of logic is that lowering the skill floor required to have fun necessarily also lowers the skill ceiling for the best of the best.

It doesn't, not always.

Yes, they absolutely "cater to" casual gamers. Why shouldn't they? Don't casual gamers deserve to have fun, too? As long as it doesn't crimp the high end, sure, but so far nobody has demonstrated how that actually has happened.

The best example of this is going from Brood War to Starcraft 2. The same arguments were made: multiple building select, unlimited unit select, worker rally point to minerals, all were held up as reducing the skill ceiling of Starcraft 2 as compared to Brood War. Which there was some truth to: it took more mechanical capability to order your units around 12 at a time and still be effective.

The thing is, several of the big names eventually did transition from Brood War into playing Starcraft 2, most notably Flash. Given the name "God" for his performance in Brood War, he struggled in Starcraft 2 despite being phenomenally more mechanically capable than almost anyone else who has ever played RTS. But he couldn't succeed, he couldn't achieve the utter and total dominance he had playing Brood War.

Now, you could call that a lowered skill ceiling, but I don't. I call that a different set of skills required, skills that he never learned and couldn't execute as well as others. If you define "skill" as "what you needed to do to be good at game X" then yes, any game that isn't game X is going to have a "reduced skill ceiling." But, if you don't acknowledge the differences in skills required, you will never appreciate just how much skill really is required in a different game. Yes, the individual tasks you have to do now you might have to do in a new game. But they're replaced with other things, other nuances, other ways that the top of the top truly do differentiate themselves from the rest.

That is the task I put forth as a challenge to anyone who complains about a low skill ceiling:

Hit it.

Then we'll talk.
post #166 of 312
Plus OW prefers close combat, apart from the few heroes that have a decent damage at range the majority is very short range which is a contrast to other older FPS games where medium and long range are a staple. In OW you are forced to go fight at very short ranges due to huge weapon ineffectiveness at range which gives an opportunity to spray and pray, area effect weapons and casts, bottlenecking etc.

That autoaim of some heroes, yeah well broken. I don't exactly mean Winston with his electric close range gun, that is not so unreal or insane or hard to aim at close range but there are other chars and ultis with autoaim that shouldn't be autoaim.

Overall IMHO the weapons range should be increased, spread lowered and autoaims removed with further balancing of DPS/health/abilities.
post #167 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by AvatarOfWoe666 View Post

Of course it does. If you take two different people and have them both playing soldier 76 with their ultimate up and they flank behind three people you are going to get the exact same outcome no matter how good they are at shooter games. They are going to press q and hold down left click and the three enemies die. Now do that same scenario with an ultimate that does not take the human factor out of the equation, such as having a bottomless clip on your rifle for 10 seconds. A good aimer/ fps player will aim for heads burst fire to control recoil and still get all three kills, a low skill player will hold left click down lose accuracy and may not kill anyone. Blizzard wants everyone to have their moment to feel like a god so they design this way so that everyone can have that warm feeling of being an all star.

Unless you flanked from a bad position, and my Roadhog hook hits you before you kill us and you get a face full of screws and die, whereas my 76 picked a better approach angle and got his ultimate off unmolested.

Oh, hey, there's skill involved in using the autoaim ult.

That scenario isn't even uncommon. I get at least one hook kill on 76's using their ult nearly every game that I am Roadhog and there's an opposing 76. Good 76's stay out of hook range, which sounds simple but to do that and avoid all of the other things that could kill you before you get to flank and use the ult and murder people with autoaim does separate bad 76 players from good ones.
post #168 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

Unless you flanked from a bad position, and my Roadhog hook hits you before you kill us and you get a face full of screws and die, whereas my 76 picked a better approach angle and got his ultimate off unmolested.

Oh, hey, there's skill involved in using the autoaim ult.

That scenario isn't even uncommon. I get at least one hook kill on 76's using their ult nearly every game that I am Roadhog and there's an opposing 76. Good 76's stay out of hook range, which sounds simple but to do that and avoid all of the other things that could kill you before you get to flank and use the ult and murder people with autoaim does separate bad 76 players from good ones.

Yes, as with any task in the world is there some room for variation and improvement? But how can anyone argue that a game where you have an aimbot ultimate can ever have as high a skill ceiling as one where you are in the exact same scenario but have no auto aim? You go from having to manage position, movement, aim, not falling and taking to basically avoid Road-hog hook or maybe more generally avoiding enemy fire. Which seems to me like you have cut out a lot of the room to distinguish yourself in any given scenario. Since at that point as 76 you can just bunny hop left and right while holding left click. Don't get me wrong there will always be people better that others be they pros or just people playing in ranked modes like their lives depend on it. But imo blizzard has taken a genre of game that should have lots of tiers of skill based on tons of factors and condensing it down to the extreme. Where the tiers are basically very high and very blah.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

The fault of logic is that lowering the skill floor required to have fun necessarily also lowers the skill ceiling for the best of the best.

It doesn't, not always.

Yes, they absolutely "cater to" casual gamers. Why shouldn't they? Don't casual gamers deserve to have fun, too? As long as it doesn't crimp the high end, sure, but so far nobody has demonstrated how that actually has happened.

The best example of this is going from Brood War to Starcraft 2. The same arguments were made: multiple building select, unlimited unit select, worker rally point to minerals, all were held up as reducing the skill ceiling of Starcraft 2 as compared to Brood War. Which there was some truth to: it took more mechanical capability to order your units around 12 at a time and still be effective.

The thing is, several of the big names eventually did transition from Brood War into playing Starcraft 2, most notably Flash. Given the name "God" for his performance in Brood War, he struggled in Starcraft 2 despite being phenomenally more mechanically capable than almost anyone else who has ever played RTS. But he couldn't succeed, he couldn't achieve the utter and total dominance he had playing Brood War.

Now, you could call that a lowered skill ceiling, but I don't. I call that a different set of skills required, skills that he never learned and couldn't execute as well as others. If you define "skill" as "what you needed to do to be good at game X" then yes, any game that isn't game X is going to have a "reduced skill ceiling." But, if you don't acknowledge the differences in skills required, you will never appreciate just how much skill really is required in a different game. Yes, the individual tasks you have to do now you might have to do in a new game. But they're replaced with other things, other nuances, other ways that the top of the top truly do differentiate themselves from the rest.

That is the task I put forth as a challenge to anyone who complains about a low skill ceiling:

Hit it.

Then we'll talk.
I suppose that comparisons hold some merit but having never played broodwar and only getting stories from some friends it always sounded to me like brood war was more (don't know if this is the right adjective) just streamlined gameplay as they moved into sc2. Whereas I feel like to compare to Overwatchs level of hand holding you would need to go much further. Like starting with max miners at your base and at every base you built after, automatically having workers build depots as needed then return to mining. Basically reducing the game to controlling your army and queing troop production. Would their still be people much better than others? Yes. Would it ever be as impressive to watch or play... imo not even close.
As for casual gamers deserving to have fun well of course they do. I do not think that you have to diminish a game for others to have casuals enjoy it. There are people in csgo that never play ranked, hell even some that never play a regular csgo mode only like hunger games mods or stuff. Or they just play ranked in silver elos and just relish in the struggle.

I don't really understand the doubt associated with the skill in some games. If you have played HOTS, LOL, and DOTA 2 the simple fact is that Dota 2 is the hardest game to play and be successful at.
If you play cod, battlefield, and csgo it becomes pretty obvious which is harder and has the most potential for skill growth. As I have said before I like the game, I enjoy playing it with friends, and maybe ranked mode will leave me feeling more fulfilled with more strategy, counterpicking and communication. I guess it will come down to how successful it is as a competitive game to see how the masses feel. I just do not personally see it taking off. It will never have moments of intense clutches like olofmeister or nbk in csgo, never have the moments of awe inspiring aim like quake (unless they fix hitboxes), and never show amazing individual prowess like seeing Dendi play invoker or Black last hitting on AM. Just an opinion of someone who plays more video games than is healthy and then afterwards watches others play on twitch.
post #169 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy9000 View Post

The ultimate ability isn't always up, so it doesn't even change the skill needed to play that class. If you can't aim except when the ultimate is up, you aren't going to help your team much.

Again, not a single one of your argument addresses skill ceiling. A skill ceiling would mean there is no room for improvement via gameplay.

What you are actually talking about is skill floor, or the minimum skill required to "play" the class. Widowmaker is going to have a higher "floor" than winston, because you will be completely useless until you can hit something with the sniper. Still, just because Winston doesn't have to aim doesn't mean a skilled player won't be insanely more effective than a less skilled player.

Overwatch has overall a lower skill floor than TF2, making it easier for casuals to get in to, but the skill cap is just as high.

Yeah. You got it 100% right. Skill floor in Overwatch is very low. That is the great thing about this game. The ceiling is only up to the players that play it. The more people that play it the higher it is.
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post #170 of 312
Why do people think this will become a competitive esports game like dota or cs

It's like saying tf2 is a competitive esports game.
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