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[AS] Overwatch Sales Top Seven Million – One of the Most Successful Global Game Launches of All Time - Page 22

post #211 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

No, they would not be "pretty much gone" because the tick rate only contributes a small fraction to the overall latency.

If you think 50ms is only a small fraction of the overall latency of someone with 15ms then I don't know what to tell you, that's a delay literally 3 times of my ping.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

That you think you will EVER get real-time information, let alone thinking you will get it from a higher tick rate, displays a complete misunderstanding of how netcode works, and the reality of basic laws of physics like the finite speed of light.

Now you're ranting unrelated nonsense, next thing you'll say is that gravity waves also add to the delay more than the Tick Rate.

You obviously don't need anyone to point out your ignorance on the subject, that is clear as day, so instead I will just correct you as much as I can.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

20 Hz tick rate can contribute, at most, 50 ms to your latency.

That's 3 times my latency, 3 times the delay of my latency thanks to Tick Rate, can you even think bro? But even then you're wrong, Tick rate doesn't work by adding itself to the end user ping, it works by taking snapshopts of everyone on the server, movements and actions, on which each player have a ping of their own, be it 15ms or 60ms.

These snapshots are taken 20 times per second at a rate of 50ms each, if you have a ping of 60ms this means with a tick rate of 20 you could actually end up with a delay of 220ms worst case scenario for the server and 440ms for the enemy player at the unfortunate time where two ticks stack up.

If the tick rate was 160Hz then the worst case scenario for a 25ms ping would instead of 150ms for the server and over 300ms for the ENEMY player be cut 10 times 1/10 of the added delay coming exclusively from tick rate which is then added to the user's ping which would be around 5ms (165Hz Rate) instead of 50ms (20Hz Rate) per tick, all on top of the "Transit" delay as you like to call it, netting a 30ms to the server, greatly reducing the amount of outdated data the server is receiving, and 60ms for the enemy player receiving data from you assuming he have the same ping of 25ms.

Thanks to 160Hz Tick Rate enemy players with a 25ms ping receiving data of your movements and actions had their TOTAL delay down from 300ms on a 20Hz Tick Rate to 60ms on a 160Hz Tick Rate


Even at the unfortunate time where two ticks stack up with a Rate of 160Hz = 5ms X 2 ticks = 10ms + 25ms user ping = 35 to the server + 35ms for an enemy player receiving data from you on the same Tick Rate and ping = 70ms, down from over 300ms.

This gains even MORE importance when you take into account Overwatch's movement prediction system and its favor the shooter system.

Anyone with a ping of less than 50ms while playing on a 144Hz+ Tickrate would be feeling like playing on LAN mode, people with higher ping would still get all the benefits but their ping would now be the next bottleneck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

Now, you could reduce that to zero, and you'd STILL have to deal with your outgoing transit time.

Which would be 5ms X 1 tick = 5ms -5 because of "you could reduce that to zero" = 0 + 15ms user ping = 15 to the server + 15ms for an enemy player receiving data from you on the same ZERO INFINITE Tick + ping = 30ms, down from 40ms of 160Hz Tick Rate (Diminishing Returns anyone?), AND even at the unfortunate time where two ticks stack up with a Rate of infinite... Oh wait, two ticks can't stack with infinite Tick Rate, nvm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

the finite time it takes the server to process your command, the return transit time.

Which is explained on the simple formula above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

your computer's processing of the incoming information, and the GPU computation of the new frame based on the incoming information.

Which is not the issue at hand as this is Input Lag not network delay and it is the same kind of delay you get on single player games, meaning nonexistent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

It's STILL a small fraction of the overall pipeline.

Lack of understanding at its best.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

In addition, your claim that you might miss where Genji dashed to in a single frame is simply false, as the Genji dash animation takes more than one frame. Stuff that's this easy to disprove really should lead people to question your credibility.

This doesn't put your credibility out to question, but completely shatter it.

Do you realize that Genji's dash taking more than 1 frame is based upon a frametime 3 times higher than the one you get with 20 FPS that I was talking about? If Genji's animation takes 10 frames would you still be able to see those 10 frames if Overwatch was running at 10 FPS? No, this shows a lack of understanding on the matter beyond what I initially thought.

There are games where the entire engine would slow down with framerate, games like an Online Match in Street Fighter, Overwatch doesn't work like that and the engine keeps running at a fixed rate regardless of your framerate, so it is possible to miss Genji's 2-4 frames animation at 20 FPS, because Genji's animation is 2-4 frames when running a frametime of 16.67ms, the game engine will not slow down the entire lobby just so your 20 FPS PC is able to display the entirety of Genji's animation, the thought of it is bollocks.
Edited by Dargonplay - 6/16/16 at 12:09pm
post #212 of 312
The fact of the matter is that every game I join I have multiple deaths when I am already around corners not visible to the person that killed me. I am not a tick specialist or a network specialist, but I am fairly confident in means something is wrong with the system. It obviously is not the norm as I have never seen anything remotely similar out of games full of stable internet connections. Be it League of legends, Dota, CS, UT 2004 etc. When you can have everyone in a game at a solid 50 ping and you are dying a full second after you have turned a corner there is a problem. Even games like mw2 with host connections and migration I have never seen it as bad. Which is pretty appalling since in call of duty bullets penetrate tons of surfaces making corners of many things not safe to be behind. Even with that I have never died as much after having turned a corner or getting into a room which broke line of sight as I have in my 60 hrs of Overwatch. Heres to hoping they fix both that and the hitboxes so this game has a stable future on pc. Already having a competitive scene doesn't mean much for its longevity. After all Rainbow Six siege had a competitive scene and that games player population has dropped like a rock in its 6 months and loses out to things like rocket league and witcher 3 when I look at the community hubs on occasion.
post #213 of 312
The 20 tick rate is an issue for me as Reinhardt at times. On my screen I die from something that was on the other side of my shield. In the replay I can clearly see I was not shielding myself.
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post #214 of 312
Tick rate issues or not I am really enjoying this game. I never played TF2 so I don't have to compare it to that so that is nice. As a casual FPS gamer this game makes me happy:D
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post #215 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by AvatarOfWoe666 View Post

The fact of the matter is that every game I join I have multiple deaths when I am already around corners not visible to the person that killed me. I am not a tick specialist or a network specialist, but I am fairly confident in means something is wrong with the system.

It's not that there's something "wrong" with the system, it's that they made a design choice that's different from the way other games have done it.

In some other games, what you see is the server's representation of reality, and your commands are then processed by the server after all latency. What this means is that you'll have to lead your shots, firing your sniper rifle into open air and hoping that by the time the server processes your command, the target will have moved to where your bullet is going.

Instead, in Overwatch, what you see is *not* what the server is seeing. Nor is what you are seeing what your opponent is seeing. In fact, no one in the game is seeing what the server is seeing, and none of you are seeing what anyone else is seeing. Now, you might initially think this makes no sense, how can we play a game where nobody is seeing the same thing? But the upside to this is what they call Favor the Shooter, which means that if you see it, you can shoot it. Yes, your client may be extrapolating based on the last received information from the server, but if you saw the guy standing there not running around a corner and shot him, that information is what is sent back to the server. The server checks it out to make sure nothing weird happened, like you getting killed first by something else or a movement hack that's outside the rules of the game, and if it checks out then the server registers the hit. Your opponent, however, is operating in the future, and saw himself run around the corner, and dies. He goes "*** happened?" and watches the killcam, which is what YOU saw, and saw you see him and shoot him, and gets mad. But the critical part is that neither of you, neither his view of running around the corner nor your view of shooting him, are the truth.

Most of the time, this isn't a problem. You're shot in the open, and you die, and you go "Dang, maybe next time." It's only the edge cases of ducking behind a doorway and similar things where the tick rate even plays any role whatsoever, and I for one think that's a far more reasonable tradeoff than making it so that in order to shoot someone you need to aim at where you think they will be in the future rather than where they are.

For more detail than fits in a post on the subject, watch the video where the guys who wrote the netcode explain how it works:

post #216 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdbsat View Post

Tick rate issues or not I am really enjoying this game. I never played TF2 so I don't have to compare it to that so that is nice. As a casual FPS gamer this game makes me happy:D

Ignore this guy, he's completely clueless of what he's talking about and don't even know that there is no modern games with those characteristics "What this means is that you'll have to lead your shotsr"

Laughable at best.

As laughable as Overwatch's favor the shooter with this ultra slow Tick Rate.

There are systems far superior but far more expensive as well, like Client Reg (Overwatch's system Favor the shooter) combined with Server Authentication, this means you have to shoot them right where you see them, but the server can negate the shots fired at someone who was already safe in the corner.

I bet he can't even bother to refute my points as he doesn't even understand what he's talking about, posting a very basic non technical video of Blizzard devs patting themselves on the back is not understanding how networking works.

You'd not expect a company talking wastes of their own code, although you are right, the game is very fun, level 90 already, excited to see how ranked plays out.
post #217 of 312
Everything I stated in my post is factual, and backed up by the comments from the developers who actually wrote the netcode we're discussing.

Client registration with server authentication is what Overwatch already uses. Overwatch does NOT use pure client registration, which you'd know if you bothered to watch the video.
post #218 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

Everything I stated in my post is factual, and backed up by the comments from the developers who actually wrote the netcode we're discussing.

Client registration with server authentication is what Overwatch already uses. Overwatch does NOT use pure client registration, which you'd know if you bothered to watch the video.

I did watched it, I recommend you to read my post so you can learn something sand stop making a fool of yourself.

Blizzard uses a favor the shooter system, the only time the server prevents you from killing someone is if they use a mitigation effect, not when you run out to cover, and thanks to the shamefully slow tick rate and its huge delay you might blink away Roadhog's hook but he'll still catch you even after you blinked to a different position compared to where Roadhog aimed his hook.

If this was a true Client Reg/Server Authentication system instead of a favor the shooter system that wouldn't be possible, at all, as the server would have denied that Hook, the same would be true for a more snappier 160Hz Tick Rate favor the shooter.

You should learn about the things you intend to talk about so you can save yourself the shame.
Edited by Dargonplay - 6/16/16 at 11:26am
post #219 of 312
Quote:
20 Hz tick rate can contribute, at most, 50 ms to your latency. The average will be half that, 25 ms. Now, you could reduce that to zero, and you'd STILL have to deal with your outgoing transit time, the finite time it takes the server to process your command, the return transit time, your computer's processing of the incoming information, and the GPU computation of the new frame based on the incoming information.

It's STILL a small fraction of the overall pipeline.

The delay between you performing an action and another player seeing it with 20ms ping is around 100ms. Ping is 20% of that and tickrate is half of it, some of the rest goes to netcode, buffering etc.

Setting tickrate even to 60hz reduces the total player to server delay experienced by 1/3'rd (33ms) and removes the majority of the random variation in this delay (over half of it). We know this because the setting already exists in-game and people have done tests of these scenarios.
Edited by Cyro999 - 6/16/16 at 11:31am
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post #220 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

With a 20ms ping, you have about a 100 millisecond delay. Ping is 20% of that and tickrate is half of it. Setting tickrate even to 60hz reduces the total player to server delay experienced by 1/3'rd (33ms) and removes the vast majority of the random variation (50-65% of it)

I already explained that to him in as much detail as possible, he either don't understand it or he's blind to his own ignorance.
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