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[VideoCardz] AMD Radeon RX 490X Specifications - Page 19

post #181 of 374
Chip size has more to do with margins at the high end. Midrange and below it becomes a factor in price.

The rise in top end GPU prices is mainly due to the PC market just paying those prices without even considering actual value. The "Its $1000?!? Oh it faster, I have to buy it anyway." crowd just blows me away. The market as a whole could drive prices down if the users weren't like meth addicts.
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post #182 of 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeDuffy View Post

Thought all leaks indicated GDDR5X and 384bit bus for GP102 - this a good thing cause the packaging costs of HBM are too great.

The market has spoken after the release of the Nano, they don't want more compact GPUs. People won't pay for it and "Journalists" don't seem to care.

Now AMD is pushing HBM2 very hard with Vega - I'm just worried that the market isn't ready for such products and it could be a costly mistake. HBM2 seems rather risky to me on a consumer GPU.

HBM2 will secure the next consoles and numerous design wins with OEMs for AMD cause we all know APU are bandwidth starved.

Maybe, but I don't know.
HBM2 is supposed to be cheaper than HBM1. At least that is what samsung and hynix are saying, and samsung said they are already mass producing it for at least a few months now.

If GP102 is actually going to be in the 1080ti, and a cut down of GP100, I fully expect it to be HBM2.

I don't expect the 490x to have HBM2. Feels incorrect. I fully expect a 490x to be a bigger polaris 10, and a new fury to be the vega 10. Because even with HBM2, the price of making the card overall is going to be high (bigger core, on die memory, liquid cooling most likely, etc etc), which will be too high in the food chain, leaving too of a big gap and a place for Nvidia to eat up the market again.
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post #183 of 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarathKasun View Post

Chip size has more to do with margins at the high end. Midrange and below it becomes a factor in price.

The rise in top end GPU prices is mainly due to the PC market just paying those prices without even considering actual value. The "Its $1000?!? Oh it faster, I have to buy it anyway." crowd just blows me away. The market as a whole could drive prices down if the users weren't like meth addicts.

I agree, but, even with margins, the first iteration of new development is always going to cost more, because of the price of R&D, the amount of testing and development done to a new chip, regardless of its size.
Once everything is ironed out, and manufacturing is both at full swing and bigger yields are being made, the margins starts to become a higher factor.
If Nvidia will sell the card for lets say 400$ right now, because it has a small die size, they will actually lose money in the scheme of things.
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post #184 of 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

I agree, but, even with margins, the first iteration of new development is always going to cost more, because of the price of R&D, the amount of testing and development done to a new chip, regardless of its size.
Once everything is ironed out, and manufacturing is both at full swing and bigger yields are being made, the margins starts to become a higher factor.
If Nvidia will sell the card for lets say 400$ right now, because it has a small die size, they will actually lose money in the scheme of things.

$550/$380 is still a reasonable price for GTX 1080/1070 considering R&D as well as the inherently high cost of this node. I think NV is trying to get as much return through margins as is possible right now so they can reinvest that into diversifying their product stack. The bread and butter portion of the GPU stack (high volume mediocre margin cards) is constantly falling closer and closer to the performance provided by APU's. Nvidia is the only player here that is missing the IP needed to compete in the APU space at present.
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post #185 of 374
Internally at AMD, Vega is slated for Q2 2017, NOT 2016.

Thank you.
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post #186 of 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarathKasun View Post

$550/$380 is still a reasonable price for GTX 1080/1070 considering R&D as well as the inherently high cost of this node. I think NV is trying to get as much return through margins as is possible right now so they can reinvest that into diversifying their product stack. The bread and butter portion of the GPU stack (high volume mediocre margin cards) is constantly falling closer and closer to the performance provided by APU's. Nvidia is the only player here that is missing the IP needed to compete in the APU space at present.

Of course nvidia will try to push the price as high as they can for the release, until AMD brings some sort of answer. Until then, they will put the price at the highest they can to still generate sales.
When stocks start to stay in the store, the price will also drop. I expect the price to be closer to the 500$ once the TI comes out or very close to it.

Regarding APU, yes, but I think it will take a while longer. I mean, we already have home basic computers without any dGPU, but for iGPUs to really rival the low end, which will also move forward a bit, is going to take a couple of years.
By that time, I believe both AMD and nvidia will plan ahead for the dGPU low-end market (I'm sure AMD will also be hurt in it just like nvidia, but they will gain some of that market back for the APUs).
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post #187 of 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

Of course nvidia will try to push the price as high as they can for the release, until AMD brings some sort of answer. Until then, they will put the price at the highest they can to still generate sales.
When stocks start to stay in the store, the price will also drop. I expect the price to be closer to the 500$ once the TI comes out or very close to it.

Regarding APU, yes, but I think it will take a while longer. I mean, we already have home basic computers without any dGPU, but for iGPUs to really rival the low end, which will also move forward a bit, is going to take a couple of years.
By that time, I believe both AMD and nvidia will plan ahead for the dGPU low-end market (I'm sure AMD will also be hurt in it just like nvidia, but they will gain some of that market back for the APUs).

We might get Quad Zen+P11 APU's in short order. The real question is, what is going to happen about memory bandwidth? AMD has a bit of experience with HBM, perhaps we will see HBM2 LLC on the new high end APU's from them. If that happens, a single HBM2 stack would be sufficient and everything below ~$200 will be obsolete for the new build/OEM market.
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post #188 of 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarathKasun View Post

We might get Quad Zen+P11 APU's in short order. The real question is, what is going to happen about memory bandwidth? AMD has a bit of experience with HBM, perhaps we will see HBM2 LLC on the new high end APU's from them. If that happens, a single HBM2 stack would be sufficient and everything below ~$200 will be obsolete for the new build/OEM market.

It could be.
There is a lot of potential regarding zen and polaris and HBM2.
But before planning the wallet, I first want to actually see results of the zen. It is in the making for what? over 2 years now? And except some promises, no actual information came out. Also except an extreme low end dGPU, nothing came out of polaris. A 150W GPU is far from being put into an APU.

And 200$? I doubt it. Too low to put all the new tech on one chip. Too soon for that.
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post #189 of 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

Also except an extreme low end dGPU, nothing came out of polaris.

Why, I had no idea an R5 was a CF away from being the equal of a Fury X. Thanks for showing me the way.
post #190 of 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

It could be.
There is a lot of potential regarding zen and polaris and HBM2.
But before planning the wallet, I first want to actually see results of the zen. It is in the making for what? over 2 years now? And except some promises, no actual information came out. Also except an extreme low end dGPU, nothing came out of polaris. A 150W GPU is far from being put into an APU.

And 200$? I doubt it. Too low to put all the new tech on one chip. Too soon for that.

If you can get a Case/PSU/SSD/CPU/MB/RAM that gives you 1080p 60fps in many titles at ~$600 the low end is gone. P11 isnt P10, AFAIK its approximately half of it and would fit into an APU nicely. P11 is the size of one Zen quadcore "module", meaning you could strip one module out of 8 core Zen and drop a VERY beefy IGP into it.
Edited by KarathKasun - 6/6/16 at 1:37am
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