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post #201 of 374
someone don't like the taste of food he makes. biggrin.gif
post #202 of 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by PontiacGTX View Post

manufacturing costs are unknown for any and for a mid range gpu you cant tell how cheap was to produce it,when GF110 was release had a 100% revenue from the card now rebranding a midrange into high end would increase the gains...

GCN was more futureproof than Kepler,had higher performance in compute,more expensive memory system and it required research for a new architecture.

why should I recall the r9 295x2 if it was a true high end gpu with improved cooling meanwhile nvidia offering which was midrange was 1000usd for a dual gpu when evga used to make similar cards for 519usd.and. the true high end dual gpu (GTX Titan Z) was 328% more expensive than the latest high end dual gpu(GTX 590),and if you compare the 295x2 or r9 390x2 both perform better for a consumer/professional use while being 50% cheaper with a better architecture overall.

Why do you expect that a gpu with bottlenecked in raster/rasterizers RBe,triangle throughtput,and Less vram,in overall with bottlenecks, beats a card with new architecture?.AMD simply was showing how HBM is implemented in video card,showing the advantages reducing power consumption by 80w with 45% more SP and no architecture change,with a small form factor,also the price was hugher because there has to be a revenue to the research of the memory tech which will be used later

It find the whole extremely inaccurate.

The GF110 was 100% revenue? Do you have numbers to back it up? You do realise that you don't buy a card directly from nvidia? A card is taking at least 2-4 hands depends on where you buy, and each hand is taking its own cut. Selling a card for 500$ does not mean the manufacturer is getting 500$. You should at some point learn how business works. If it cost to manufacture a 500$ card about 200$, than the manufacturer is getting maybe 300$, maybe, huge maybe. Most likely much less.
Also, are AMD selling cards for charity? Do you know how much they are making for the rebrand of the 200 into 300?

Kepler was never meant to be future proof. No card is. And GCN isn't all that future proof. It gets updated just like any other architecture. It also has its own limits (aka DX11 low performance across the board). They stick to one architecture, and it did not go very well for them for the last 4 years.

Unlike AMD, nvidia put only a few titan z cards, and they sold them all, and that was it. They were not mass produced and price of small batch is high. AMD on the other hand did mass produce the 295x2 to a certain amount, and they cut its price by almost a half after what? 3 months? Nvidia just showed they can do it, and got over with it. AMD tried very hard to show how the 295x2 is such a good card, yet a few months later it was already shadowed by a single GPU card in many games. let alone shabby CFX support.
Also the Devil 13 is not made by AMD, and unlike the 295x2, they were few made and fewer sold (you can still grab one for 670$, 130$ off the release price).

And who cares AMD wanted to "show case" the HBM. The market gain is not made by "effort points", and debt owners do not accept "effort points" as payment.
They put the cards at a high price saying "best card ever!!!!" and it turned into a failed attempt again (not a total fail, but still a harsh one), and they had to reduce price and say "yes, best card ever, in 2 years, when more DX12 games come out". That is not how you sell a card.
They did not "show case" it anyway. It was their run at high end because they couldn't make it any other way. If they could, you would see HBM being delayed or just tested until HBM2 was ready.
Also reducing power? The Fury X was one of the biggest power hungry single GPU cards AMD have put in the last few years, already running almost at its peak with very little OC room. It required closed loop to keep it under check. It terms of performance/power, it was really bad at it even compared to the titans and the 980 TI. So they put HBM to reduce power on GDDR5 and still took so much power? That says a lot on the core itself how much power it needed to rival the 980 TI or how much they had to push the core to make it workable in its price target.

And do you think the 980 TI or 1080 had R&D of zero? Come on man. nvidia R&D expenses is way higher than AMD year to year. Do you expect them to just give you the cards at a loss?
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post #203 of 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mookster View Post

You should remember.

This is actually somewhat more mild than when Tahiti came out and dominated Fermi. It was the death of NV. AMD was suddenly comprised of semiconductor geniuses, whose skill rived God himself. Fermi owners were disgusted about how quickly and easily their $600, big-die monsters became obsolete.

It's no different this time, aside from the tables being turned. We do have a great swath of newcomers who still don't understand the significance of a die shrink, or even the significance of a chip's size. They kind of understand price difference, but they still think that the brand who's offering the most performance is the Crom of silicon regardless of die size, price, node, or overall value.

It's certainly not a new phenomena, and it's certainly not something that can't be perpetuated and capitalized upon by the brands. So what can you really expect?
I said evergreen vs fermi or GCN vs kepler, not GCN vs fermi. we are both technically right, as there was near mass hysteria when GCN first came out. but IMO the 480 vs the 1080 is more similar to GCN vs kepler rather than GCN vs fermi, both are on a new, similarly sized node, and both are brand new with tweaked arches.

Seeing this kind of hype between two chips of the same generation, however, is relatively new phenomena. the 6000 vs 500 and 7000 vs 600 didnt have this issue to such a degree. the 2xx vs the 900 series started this same-generation hype, and it hasnt really cooled down since then, IMO.

The whole market has gotten so sensationalized, much like everything else it seems.
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post #204 of 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

It find the whole extremely inaccurate.

The GF110 was 100% revenue? Do you have numbers to back it up?



More than 100% revenue making a High End GPU the same with midrange when they were tagged as such.
Quote:
You do realise that you don't buy a card directly from nvidia? A card is taking at least 2-4 hands depends on where you buy, and each hand is taking its own cut. Selling a card for 500$ does not mean the manufacturer is getting 500$. You should at some point learn how business works. If it cost to manufacture a 500$ card about 200$, than the manufacturer is getting maybe 300$, maybe, huge maybe. Most likely much less.
So those card which dont have anything difference between reference card and the other brands should be more because they are handled by a 3rd party instead making an improved PCB/VRM/mostfet which certainly adds costs.



Quote:
Also, are AMD selling cards for charity? Do you know how much they are making for the rebrand of the 200 into 300?
I dont know how much they get from their card it should be less than the GTX 970 whicha cutdown midrange GPU.R9 290x from 550usd went down to 450usd in the 8GB mode (290x) to Sub 400usd with the r9 390x. and still it was 150-100usd cheaper than the GM204 GPU while offering similar or better performance (1440,4k,Multiples displays,DX12)


Quote:
Kepler was never meant to be future proof. No card is. And GCN isn't all that future proof. It gets updated just like any other architecture. It also has its own limits (aka DX11 low performance across the board). They stick to one architecture, and it did not go very well for them for the last 4 years.
R9 290X(2013) with a slighly OC is matching the new architecture from nvidia on 2014-2015, while getting playable framerate on high resolution, getting better Multi engine support than Nvidia card which are supposed to improve most of the features from Kepler,and still it didnt for the new API from Microsoft (DX12)
Quote:
Unlike AMD, nvidia put only a few titan z cards, and they sold them all, and that was it. They were not mass produced and price of small batch is high. AMD on the other hand did mass produce the 295x2 to a certain amount, and they cut its price by almost a half after what? 3 months? Nvidia just showed they can do it
R9 295X2 for 50% lower price and later Powercolor decided to reduce price on their 290x2 still was cheaper and better than ANY of the Nvidia offering how is selling a worse card for more is a good thing?
Quote:
later it was already shadowed by a single GPU card in many games. let alone shabby CFX support.
what? R9 290x2,R9 390X2,R9 295x2 all remains relevant to date beating the best Nvidia offering the Titan X while being cheaper


Quote:
Also the Devil 13 is not made by AMD, and unlike the 295x2, they were few made and fewer sold (you can still grab one for 670$, 130$ off the release price).
Devil13 290x2 is the only version which improved PCB,power delivery and VRM cooling given AMD didnt allow modifying r9 295x2 all. and it dropped a 53% its price when the slower High end Maxwell GPU was released and the r9 290x2/295x2 was faster.
Quote:
And who cares AMD wanted to "show case" the HBM.
Many investors who has stocks from AMD and effects new technology which later becomes standard because it is open.


Quote:
They put the cards at a high price saying "best card ever!!!!" and it turned into a failed attempt again (not a total fail, but still a harsh one), and they had to reduce price and say "yes, best card ever, in 2 years, when more DX12 games come out". That is not how you sell a card.
if you talk about the R9 290x it has been their best GPU up to date while beating Kepler,matching GM204 on DX11 and beating GM204 on DX12.

Quote:
They did not "show case" it anyway. It was their run at high end because they couldn't make it any other way. If they could, you would see HBM being delayed or just tested until HBM2 was ready.
it wasnt only showcased also the Proof of Concept was taken into market and used effectively to recover a small part of their investment of R&D during 5/7years
Quote:
Also reducing power? The Fury X was one of the biggest power hungry single GPU cards AMD have put in the last few years,
the power consumption of the card is merely 275w under load


it increased SP by 45% and also improved the bandwidth while keeping the power draw of the r9 290x with less compute performance.
Quote:
It required closed loop to keep it under check. It terms of performance/power, it was really bad at it even compared to the titans and the 980 TI. So
why would you care about power consumption on a enthusiast level card? by then you needed 2x card to match a proper performance in demanding games at high resolution
Quote:
they put HBM to reduce power on GDDR5 and still took so much power?
that same memory allowed to match the 980 with same power levels in a smaller form factor
Quote:
And do you think the 980 TI or 1080 had R&D of zero?
Pascal shares Maxwell pipeline where are the improvements from R&D in DX12 M.E?




why all those setences are against AMD ?
R9 290x remains relevant 3 years later, and in your opinion it is bad
R9 290x matched a newer architecture while being cheaper, it is bad
Dual AMD GPUs being cheaper and faster than any single card offering for a long time andit is bad
AMD researched HBM and released the first card with this memory, and in your opinion it is bad
AMD Reduced power consumption (comparing with GDDR5) while improving Bandwidth and getting a small form factor and adds bettter cooling , and in your opinion it is bad


never criticizing the nvidia bad practices, Nvidia criplling/stop improving driver of 1000-700-650usd GPUs which performed quite similar to the new architecture mid range gpus at release, selling midrange gpus at +100% what they used to be, and high end GPUs almost 25% more, showing marketing slides with misinformation, making 3rd API to cripple whatever isnt their latest gpu architecture.
Edited by PontiacGTX - 6/6/16 at 10:21am
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post #205 of 374
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by PontiacGTX View Post


More than 100% revenue making a High End GPU the same with midrange when they were tagged as such.
So those card which dont have anything difference between reference card and the other brands should be more because they are handled by a 3rd party instead making an improved PCB/VRM/mostfet which certainly adds costs.
I dont know how much they get from their card it should be less than the GTX 970 whicha cutdown midrange GPU.R9 290x from 550usd went down to 450usd in the 8GB mode (290x) to Sub 400usd with the r9 390x. and still it was 150-100usd cheaper than the GM204 GPU while offering similar or better performance (1440,4k,Multiples displays,DX12)
R9 290X(2013) with a slighly OC is matching the new architecture from nvidia on 2014-2015, while getting playable framerate on high resolution, getting better Multi engine support than Nvidia card which are supposed to improve most of the features from Kepler,and still it didnt for the new API from Microsoft (DX12)
R9 295X2 for 50% lower price and later Powercolor decided to reduce price on their 290x2 still was cheaper and better than ANY of the Nvidia offering how is selling a worse card for more is a good thing?
what? R9 290x2,R9 390X2,R9 295x2 all remains relevant to date beating the best Nvidia offering the Titan X while being cheaper

Devil13 290x2 is the only version which improved PCB,power delivery and VRM cooling given AMD didnt allow modifying r9 295x2 all. and it dropped a 53% its price when the slower High end Maxwell GPU was released and the r9 290x2/295x2 was faster.
Many investors who has stocks from AMD and effects new technology which later becomes standard because it is open.
if you talk about the R9 290x it has been their best GPU up to date while beating Kepler,matching GM204 on DX11 and beating GM204 on DX12.
it wasnt only showcased also the Proof of Concept was taken into market and used effectively to recover a small part of their investment of R&D during 5/7years
the power consumption of the card is merely 275w under load


it increased SP by 45% and also improved the bandwidth while keeping the power draw of the r9 290x with less compute performance.
why would you care about power consumption on a enthusiast level card? by then you needed 2x card to match a proper performance in demanding games at high resolution


that same memory allowed to match the 980 with same power levels in a smaller form factor
Pascal shares Maxwell pipeline where are the improvements from R&D in DX12 M.E?




why all those setences are against AMD ?
R9 290x remains relevant 3 years later, and in your opinion it is bad
R9 290x matched a newer architecture while being cheaper, it is bad
Dual AMD GPUs being cheaper and faster than any single card offering for a long time andit is bad
AMD researched HBM and released the first card with this memory, and in your opinion it is bad
AMD Reduced power consumption (comparing with GDDR5) while improving Bandwidth and getting a small form factor and adds bettter cooling , and in your opinion it is bad


never criticizing the nvidia bad practices, Nvidia criplling/stop improving driver of 1000-700-650usd GPUs which performed quite similar to the new architecture mid range gpus at release, selling midrange gpus at +100% what they used to be, and high end GPUs almost 25% more, showing marketing slides with misinformation, making 3rd API to cripple whatever isnt their latest gpu architecture.

I've learned one thing these past few weeks while patrolling the nvidia/AMD news threads. Video cards are like politics. Its pointless to argue about it because you're not going to sway anyone. Especially on this forum. And that I fear is why AMD is doomed to fail. Majority of PC enthusists back nvidia. And when people go to a store or forum or friend for tech advise, who do you think they run into? Team green.

Unless AMD can beat nvidia on power, performance and price, nvidia fanboys will continue to call them failures. Even though AMD puts out some pretty impressive cards given their budget. And for the most part are always at the forefront of GPU/CPU tech.
post #206 of 374
Amd will always have some weakness, and nvidia will also have some weakness. but what matters is are those weaknesses relevant ? if not those aren't really weaknesses but a point of argument, a weapon for another team to downplay other's significance.

just like heat/ power wasn't an issue till amd was lagging, memory wasn't an issue until amd had 4gb on fury, surprisingly longer driver support isn't an issue because amd does better, dx12 performance isn't an issue because amd does better but somehow having dx12.1 is, suddenly stock cooler's problems/ throttling, sli drivers etc. etc. aren't an issue because you guessed it right amd isn't having those issues. ( by issues i meant their relevance )

in a market where NVIDIA has 75+ % market, have supposedly better product we should expect alot better from nvidia and should have high standards. but it's exact opposite.
everyone knows what kind of position amd is in, but for some weird reason everyone wants them to deliver a wayyyyyy better product for cheap and they let nvidia's shortcomings slip. i mean what the hell is this ?
post #207 of 374
The state of the GPU market is astonishing. Myself always trying to make an educated purchase picked Nvidia card because i was tricked into thinking that the game i am playing performs better on Nvidia cards.

Lots of people root for Nvidia that + marketing tricks other people into thinking they are better.

A few months ago i stumbled on this forum that had a link to adoredTV and i watched some of the movies about upcoming Nvidia and AMD products and got me curious then watched the "Master Plan" 1 and 2 and since then i am reading all kind of forums at Semiaccurate, Anandtech and here mostly and i feel like an idiot not knowing all this stuff was going on.

The common user however has NO FRACKING CLUE about all this. So i have decided even that there is nothing for me in that i will try to present bits of useful information about this kind a things to the small audience that looks up to me for advice in terms of computer related stuff. That is just a few FB groups a forum and friends all round.

Not too much but if i can help 20% of those ... say 200 people make a better decision based on facts it will be something good ? right.

We can all help the people. You guys smile.gif at OCN know a ton more than i have learned in the past 2 months. Thank you for sharing with the world.


P.S. It's not about brands or being team red or green. It's about giving people the knowledge to make a better decision investing their money.
Edited by slavovid - 6/7/16 at 2:33am
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post #208 of 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by EightDee8D View Post

Amd will always have some weakness, and nvidia will also have some weakness. but what matters is are those weaknesses relevant ? if not those aren't really weaknesses but a point of argument, a weapon for another team to downplay other's significance.

just like heat/ power wasn't an issue till amd was lagging, memory wasn't an issue until amd had 4gb on fury, surprisingly longer driver support isn't an issue because amd does better, dx12 performance isn't an issue because amd does better but somehow having dx12.1 is, suddenly stock cooler's problems/ throttling, sli drivers etc. etc. aren't an issue because you guessed it right amd isn't having those issues. ( by issues i meant their relevance )

in a market where NVIDIA has 75+ % market, have supposedly better product we should expect alot better from nvidia and should have high standards. but it's exact opposite.
everyone knows what kind of position amd is in, but for some weird reason everyone wants them to deliver a wayyyyyy better product for cheap and they let nvidia's shortcomings slip. i mean what the hell is this ?

There is no Team Green or Team Red among the consumers. There is only Team ME. Perceptions matter a lot in this narrow niche of an industry, but, at the end of the day (a very long day indeed...lol), whatever company can deliver better value for the buck, it wins. From a consumer's perspective, I think AMD is headed in the right direction... Lol
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post #209 of 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by provost View Post

There is no Team Green or Team Red among the consumers. There is only Team ME. Perceptions matter a lot in this narrow niche of an industry, but, at the end of the day (a very long day indeed...lol), whatever company can deliver better value for the buck, it wins. From a consumer's perspective, I think AMD is headed in the right direction... Lol
I agree 100%, but when you look at these forums and so called "tech journalists", it seems like there's no place for actual consumer. nobody really thinks about consumer but a company.
post #210 of 374
Back in the days, Anti commercials were everywhere, Pepsi vs Cola, AMD vs Intel, Washing detergent vs Washing detergent.
TV, Radio were the official ways to building brand recognition and hurt the competition at the same time - those commercials are now illegal, and forbidden trough regulations, laws etc.
But TV and Radio are easily regulated, internet is not and as it turned out, internet was way easier in "implanting" and looking for information ad-hoc - not waiting for a commercial or a specialized show.

To understand how exactly brand, opinions, mood manipulation works -->
If every day, you wake up and your friend tells you "you're a fool", you go to school and you're greeted with "you're a fool", back home "you're a fool"...on Internet "Hell yeah, you're definitely a fool there" it will not take long, when you will wake up one day, and be certain that you're actually a fool - everybody says so. This always stays in the back of your head.

To a certain degree you can exploit such cases - "You're a fool...if don't use product X" and the point is, that nobody wants to look like a fool.

Certain people are not easily manipulated, others are like sheeps (no offense). We have a saying in BG, "If one sheep takes a different path, the flock follows" - Now, if that saying was a Marketing clip, the technique to exploit that would be "That's one smart sheep...driving a Mercedes, now all others want to follow". You simply imply that if do not follow, you're not smart.

Commercials are the biggest profit makers now in 21 Century - that's how we got those giants (Google, Facebook etc.). The truthfulness of the information becomes irrelevant, profits are now driving force.
Nvidia is not the better choice, but is the smarter one. Why? 70% of the Internet says so...

I personally, am not smart.

P.S. I'm always fascinated by hearing the justification for going one brand or the other - most of them outdated or absolutely irrelevant to the regular consumer.
Edited by C2H5OH - 6/7/16 at 3:55am
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