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post #31 of 62
Still, wouldn't directly compare Noctuas with some NZXTs or Thermalrights.
There are fundamental differences in features and build quality if you are willing to appreciate them.
post #32 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove View Post

Still, wouldn't directly compare Noctuas with some NZXTs or Thermalrights.
There are fundamental differences in features and build quality if you are willing to appreciate them.
Yeah, like color. tongue.gif

I have directly compared A15 to TY-140, TY-143, TY-147 and TY-147A and no appreciable difference is performance on reference coolers or sound levels .. either dBa or to my ears. As for total life, I can't say definitely.

I can say I have TY-140 and TY-143 fans that ran for 2-3+ years 24/.7 with no problems or bearing sound issues .. and these were purchased for £4-7.00 each compared to Noctua costing 3-6 times as much.

Will the TY-140 series last as long? No idea. My oldest are TY-140s in a Define R2 case (1 horizontal in bottom) that have been in 24/7 use for 4-4.5+ years now. Still going strong. I have recommended TY-140 series fans to many people who have bought and use them. None have complained about their performance or life .. well one complained of TY-143 clicking at very low rpm 600rpm), but that was resolved with voltage control and they now idle below 400rpm. Both PWM and VV control run them 300-500rpm below specified minimum speed.

As I keep pointing out, I don't dislike Noctua at all (except their color). I some parts of our world they are not overpriced compared to others, but in most parts they are not the best performance value.

What are these "fundamental differences in features and build quality" you are on about? The fancy box, mounting screws, LNA & ULNA adapters? Most users have fan screws laying around, don't use LNA or ULNA adapters or have them laying around as well, and fancy boxes have no meaning to fans' function or quality. As for MTBF, 150,000 is more than 17 years. I doubt I will every use an fan even half that length of time and 50,000 hours (more than 5 years) is good for most of us .. assuming the MTBF is anywhere near accurate. None of these fans has been in production long enough to prove the MTBF estimates. tongue.gif
post #33 of 62
Noctua do generally provide fluid dynamic bearings with magnetic support (SSO; improves longevity and noise generation, especially on lower RPM), smoothed PWM signals (avoids commutation noise), isolated bearing (more durability, no loss of lubricant, no chance for contaminations from outside), included anti-vibration pads and some other features such as flow acceleration channels, metal bearing shell, inner surface micostructures, stepped inlet design etc. which might be more or less crucial for efficency.

And there is an overall much higher level of precision during manufacturing which you can A) notice when physically examining their products and which B) provides a much better running smoothness. Standard fans use much cheaper bearings which tend to have a lot of room between the shell and the shaft. Those gaps do lead to an imbalance of the axis and are further worsened by the weight of the rotor. And as you will probably know, every kind of imbalance will increase friction which again will wear the bearing down and finally emit more noise. So the target is to provide a fully stabilized bearing which will last much longer and will not suffer from a higher noise floor over time. To achieve that Noctua of course designed their SSO bearings which are really superb in production quality and performance. They are produced with long-lasting materials, very narrow clearences and do further benefit from the magnetization at the back. By comparison a lot of cheaper fans do usually come with sintered bearing shells which are enriched with the lubricant and will allow much more imbalance just by design. At the latest when the oil has dried out (promoted by a lack of isolation) the shaft will grind down the shell with (maybe even full) contact. Sometimes such issues are tried to be compensated by adding separate oil reservoirs, but that is not the solution. Furthermore those companies usually can't afford such strict quality inspections which will lead to higher production tolerances.

Those are things you can consider when looking for a new fan.
But as you have proven there are certainly people who are fully satisfied with cheaper models and their noise.
Personally I can hear (and measure) differences between those price ranges so I rather go for more premium fans which also have a better efficency: same performance at lower RPM and noise floor. Improved life expectancy is also a nice to have. Just read the other day that a user in a local forum has cleaned a 10 year old Noctua fan which was completely soaked by dust and it just worked fine as on the first day.

But since I don't like Noctuas color either I currently prefer Fractals Venturi which apparently do also have very good productions standards, "true" FDBs and one of the best efficiencies I have seen (respectively measured) for airflow so far.

PS: have you read my other post related to TR's ball bearings? rolleyes.gif
http://www.overclock.net/t/1602048/best-air-cooler-upto-160mm/20#post_25233302
Edited by Dr Strangelove - 6/12/16 at 10:32am
post #34 of 62
SSO and SSO2 bearings are superior to most other types of bearings. Both in terms of noise output and longevity.
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post #35 of 62
Nearly every post on this forum could be taken as advertisement in some way as far as you offer a personal opinion, including yours and mine. I could even state that you are a proponent of Thermalright because you had some work-related experiences with them and utilize an image of one of their products as your personal avatar.
But that is not what I insist on to support my arguments. Instead, my intention is to describe why I would prefer Noctuas from a technical standpoint.

I am not sure about leaking SSOs, never heard of such issues in my region. And I have seen a ridiculously high amount of people buying, praising and reusing their Nocs over years.
Despite that, believe it or not, Im finally not such an fan of their products such as others use to be. Personally I prefer the Venturi HF (not HP, they suffered from commutation noise early this year) in terms of price to performance ratio and design (black-blue instead of poop-brown, of course). But still, Nocs are really advanced in many ways and that is why I talk about them. And if you know how (quality) bearings work you will appreciate their improvements compared against conventional sleeve, rifle or hydraulic bearings which are produced with much higher tolerances.
I see no reason to dismiss them as standard products with just some fancy labels on them. If you cannot understand such an perspective, maybe switch the name from "Noctua" to "Be Quiet" or "Noiseblocker" and it will be the same thing in many affairs when comparing a premium to a low-mid tier product. Some other manufacturers provide equal designs, techniques and overall build quality.

Morover I didn't degrade TYs as essentially bad brand. There are just some fundamental differences in quality and features. The TY147As are basically fine, I even use three of them for a second system. But the others which use ball bearings are not really my cup of tea tbh. They are just too noisy. On the other hand you have to admit that a basically much cheaper fan won't be produced under the same conditions as premium products are. That wouldn't make any sense from an economic perspective!

Regarding the quality requirements there are always people who will perceive essential differences between a low, mid and high tier product.
I can see, feel and hear that the NF-A14 for example is a much more subtle product than the TY-147A is. Of course they deliver the same raw performance due to the same design of the rotor (even measured myself the other day to go sure). But still, the Noc is one step ahead in terms of acoustics allowing me to benefit from higher RPM without increasing bearing noise. Especially on lower RPM a sound-sensitive person will notice that the TY emits a constant rattle whilst the Noc runs much smoother with just a slight low-frequency hum. And that is finally a matter of technical design and and quality assurance which might be very important for some user.

And to be fair: the iPPCs are not designed to be silent fans, running on minimum speed. They are provided for industrial uses with much higher requirements in performance (up to 2k or 3k RPM). On the other hand the 6 pol motors aren't finally ready for the (silent) market, yet. But even that might change with the release of the SW3 soon...
Edited by Dr Strangelove - 6/13/16 at 6:53am
post #36 of 62
I think I'm assuming English is not your 1st language, so some things may be getting lost in translation. The connotation of 'cheap' versus 'lower priced' is an example of this.

As for the cost of making the an and the market or retail prices we pay, yes there is some difference. But supply & depend and consumer perception (the result of marketing that is often misinformation) have a much greater impact on price than the differences it costs to maintain closer tolerances in product.

NF-A14 line is big and includes the iPPC series. I have seem more consumer complaints about the iPPC fans than probably all others Nocs combined. The reason is people buying them expect the same or similar characteristics as the other A14 fans have .. and they are not the same.

You say 'fan X' feels and sounds better, but have you actually done a biind test where you pick your favorite out by simple touching the case and listening to it? Or are you seeing each fan you are comparing? If you have not, please take the time and get someone to setup a blind test, because more often then not our subconscious effects our choices. I have seen this happen many times.

How much of the sound differences and this 'constant rattle' you refer to can be heard when they are installed in a good case, like a Define R4 or R5, .. or even a Enthoo Luxe or Evolv 30-60cm from user?

I have repeatedly stated and I'm saying it again.
Noctua are among the very best fans available and better than majority. But the bottom line is they are overpriced most places on earth compared to other fans of similar performance and quality.

Maybe they do have closer tolerances, but there is a point at which there is no improvement in sound and performance efficiency.. There are simple many fans available to most of us that are lower priced with more tolerances more than close enough for almost any user.
While I have said TY-147/147A may not be as good as A14/A15 (my reference to MTBF 50,000 hr vs 150,000 hr ratings), if there is a difference it is not enough that 999 out of 1000 people will know the difference. tongue.gifMaybe 99 out of 100 .. would you believe 9 out of 10?

I hope you are not offended by my not totally agreeing with you. I believe we both have similar feeling and beliefs about these products, and I think you have used and tested more fans than I have. I do enjoy discussing these things with people who enjoy doing so.

As another thought, I wonder if all the 'sample' fans we get are of same quality as production fans we would buy off of the shelf? Obviously it depends on where the samples come from. If they are from a retail outlet they obviously retail product, but if coming direct from manufacturer they could be may not be the same as retail. Just a thought to keep in mind. tongue.gif
I agree, the iPPC is a commercial fan. But if we are (and I'll quote you) "to be fair: the iPPCs are" being retail marketed to the average home user consumer who builds their systems .. and this is a perfect example of advertising and marketing prodcuts to consumer who don't understand the differnce .. instead of making it very clear to these consumers that they are not a consumer fan, but a industrial fan. tongue.gif
Edited by doyll - 6/13/16 at 7:24am
post #37 of 62
Translation is hurdle, of course, since I'm not a native english speaker. But I try my best tongue.gif

I think its universally known that the prices of the resources and their assembly usually don't convert 1:1 into the market prices. And I totally agree that Nocs - regardless their reputation - are very pricy. There are even the NB eLoop B14 which cost at least 20% more. And I actually live at the source (germany) where those are distributed (but not produced of course).
However, since there are always consumers who strictly want the best of all, who trust in every marketing phrase without comparing and doing researches and who pay whatever they charge on those products, things probably will not change.

I do also not understand why people go for an iPPC in the expectation to use it a silent fan without any compromises. This (working constantly on min RPM without any issues) is not what the industrial line was made for. And like I already said, the 6 pole motorization is quite new to the market and needs some further improvements to utilize their actual advantages (furher stabilizing the rotor during the rotation, especially when using PWM) for low-noise operations.

Regarding the TY-147A vs NF-A14 I have compared both head to head and even examined their audio samples at the same performances. To me personally, the Noctua just sounds like its running way smoother, without any ticking or grinding noise produced by cyclically friction and other deficiencies. But to be fair on this instance, too, it is only an issue when directly (without any acoustic obstacles) sitting maybe one or two metres from the (closed) case away. And if you make use of some anti-vibration mounts it probably won't be an issue for the majority of consumers. But again, there are always users with very sensitive ears who also want to benefit from the lower noise floor of better fans/bearings whilst maintaining the same performance... and those have to pay the price.

And of course it is always a matter of what kind and how many samples you examine. But since its hard to track where and when a specific model was produced, whether it is in perfect condition or just 90% of it and since they all claim their costs, it is realistically impossible to provide 100% assurance in such tests. However, I try my best to raise measurements and insights that are as comprehensible as (realistically) possible.

Nonetheless its certainly refreshing to share thoughts and information about those products since everyone has their own preferences, perceptions and experiences wink.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by doyll View Post

But if we are (and I'll quote you) "to be fair: the iPPCs are" being retail marketed to the average home user consumer who builds their systems .. and this is a perfect example of advertising and marketing prodcuts to consumer who don't understand the differnce .. instead of making it very clear to these consumers that they are not a consumer fan, but a industrial fan. tongue.gif
Word!

But I guess that is what the label "industrial" wants to communicate biggrin.gif

PS: Noctua states:
"Conceived for industrial heavy duty applications that require enhanced cooling performance and advanced ingress protection[...]"
Edited by Dr Strangelove - 6/13/16 at 8:02am
post #38 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove View Post

Translation is hurdle, of course, since I'm not a native english speaker. But I try my best tongue.gifWarning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
I think its universally known that the prices of the resources and their assembly usually don't convert 1:1 into the market prices. And I totally agree that Nocs - regardless their reputation - are very pricy. There are even the NB eLoop B14 which cost at least 20% more. And I actually live at the source (germany) where those are distributed (but not produced of course).
However, since there are always consumers who strictly want the best of all, who trust in every marketing phrase without comparing and doing researches and who pay whatever they charge on those products, things probably will not change.

I do also not understand why people go for an iPPC in the expectation to use it a silent fan without any compromises. This (working constantly on min RPM without any issues) is not what the industrial line was made for. And like I already said, the 6 pole motorization is quite new to the market and needs some further improvements to utilize their actual advantages (furher stabilizing the rotor during the rotation, especially when using PWM) for low-noise operations.

Regarding the TY-147A vs NF-A14 I have compared both head to head and even examined their audio samples at the same performances. To me personally, the Noctua just sounds like its running way smoother, without any ticking or grinding noise produced by cyclically friction and other deficiencies. But to be fair on this instance, too, it is only an issue when directly (without any acoustic obstacles) sitting maybe one or two metres from the (closed) case away. And if you make use of some anti-vibration mounts it probably won't be an issue for the majority of consumers. But again, there are always users with very sensitive ears who also want to benefit from the lower noise floor of better fans/bearings whilst maintaining the same performance... and those have to pay the price.

And of course it is always a matter of what kind and how many samples you examine. But since its hard to track where and when a specific model was produced, whether it is in perfect condition or just 90% of it and since they all claim their costs, it is realistically impossible to provide 100% assurance in such tests. However, I try my best to raise measurements and insights that are as comprehensible as (realistically) possible.
Nonetheless its certainly refreshing to share thoughts and information about those products since everyone has their own preferences, perceptions and experiences wink.gif
Word!

But I guess that is what the label "industrial" wants to communicate biggrin.gif

PS: Noctua states:
"Conceived for industrial heavy duty applications that require enhanced cooling performance and advanced ingress protection[...]"
You English is very good. thumb.gif The suttle / hidden feelings attributed to words often makes it hard for even an English language professional to be able to put forth their feelings into words, espeically written. Compound that with this sort of discussion being rather general even at the detailed level we are talking and what the person writing it means versus what the reader interprets it to be can easily be very different .. which is why I pointed out the use of 'cheaper' versus 'lower priced'. Both have same basic definition, but not always the same feel. I think you know what I mean. tongue.gif

I have not tested any A14, only A15 as supplied on coolers. Nor have I used either the Venturi HF (11 blade) or HP (7 blade), but I can understand how one would sound better to the ear than the other, and likely vary depending on application as well.

I'm very impatient to see your test results and feelings about all the fans you are testing. thumb.gif
post #39 of 62
Thread Starter 
I was about to purchase 4 of the nocs and forgot I made this thread after posting in the other one, man how stoned am I?

Okay, time to have a look at some new fans. The main reason behind the "paying for the name" is the little thing at the back of your head that feels comfortable, knowing that there's a certain level of quality that is obtained whereas a lot of other companies it can be hard to assure yourself that they're as good as if not better than a competing product. I think in the end I'll probably get the nocs as they are at the top of the list and I've got a bit more cash these days so $110 for 5 to $175 for 5 isn't all that much of a leap, it's just the dBA that's got me worried now, I didn't realise these nocs at 3k rpm is so significantly loud compared to other fans at a lower rpm with similar fan speed. That's the only thing.

EDIT: I just cannot make my mind up as to which other fan that competes against it is the fan to get.
It's like the nocs have a huge neon light surround them with arrows, blinding you from anything else.
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post #40 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curleyyy View Post

I was about to purchase 4 of the nocs and forgot I made this thread after posting in the other one, man how stoned am I?

Okay, time to have a look at some new fans. The main reason behind the "paying for the name" is the little thing at the back of your head that feels comfortable, knowing that there's a certain level of quality that is obtained whereas a lot of other companies it can be hard to assure yourself that they're as good as if not better than a competing product. I think in the end I'll probably get the nocs as they are at the top of the list and I've got a bit more cash these days so $110 for 5 to $175 for 5 isn't all that much of a leap, it's just the dBA that's got me worried now, I didn't realise these nocs at 3k rpm is so significantly loud compared to other fans at a lower rpm with similar fan speed. That's the only thing.

EDIT: I just cannot make my mind up as to which other fan that competes against it is the fan to get.
It's like the nocs have a huge neon light surround them with arrows, blinding you from anything else.

Personally, if I were you I would go for a cheaper/less expensive option with a good return policy and see if it works for you. The cheaper option might not, but it's hard to know until you try it. You can start as low as you want, and work your way up in fan prices if you are unsatisfied.

For example, you can get a 5 pack of Arctic F12 PWM fans and rubber mounts from Amazon for $30. This might work perfectly for you. If it does, great, you saved almost $100. If it doesn't, then return them and try the next option upwards. Continue until you are satisfied.
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