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[Hexus] Nvidia culling prices of premium 900-series GeForce GPUs - Page 12

post #111 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by MuscleBound View Post

980ti has more CUDA cores an is faster in stuff like PHotoshop etc.

Yep, plus it still folds like a boss. If the price keeps dropping, I may just nab another one or two. Even on one of the low producing WUs, that be 1.2mil PPD out of two of them.

Seen the post with the one guy in the folder area folding on two 1080s, was a bit of a disappointment to me. Come on AMD and Nvidia, get the big dies out! mad.gif

I really don't buy cards for gaming, so I ignore gaming benchmarks and benchmarks in general. I like hard numbers from F@H or BOINC. Though, there is one game that coming out later that has my interest.
 
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post #112 of 177
I don't get why this Big Die thing is still so controversial...the new "small" thing is faster than the old "big" thing. Period. Proven. Done.

Yes, the old "big" maxwell can be clocked higher, but it does that pulling something like 350-380W of power...really guys, that's a lot and TOTALLY RELEVANT even for enthusiasts.

And this is what everybody forgets: nVidia doesn't design just for overclock-ability or maximum clocks: they do sell their products @ enthusiasts and do market to them too, but that's rarely their goal...they go for a power target...<75W card, <150W card, <200W card and lately <250W "big-die" cards.
So does intel. They go for 70-90W mainstream quad cores and 120-130W xeon off-shoot i7s. Clock these CPUs hard and you end up with 2x that heat density or more.

The 1080 is a <200W (stock 180W) card. It is clocked much closer to its limits for it's fin-fet 1st gen design than the more mature larger lithographies were before it, but it falls within the power target of its segment. It was clocked as high as it could and still be <200W.

The 980Ti was clocked as high as it could to stay @ 250W. It wasn't designed to be an easter-egg of OC potential, and since nVidia doesn't sell cards with incremental clock advantages anymore, I doubt they really care about the headroom of a given design. It will be replaced by another generation of product, not a slightly higher clocked version of itself.

Sure, with big HS designs 1~1.5in taller than the ref. blower and/or WC, you could go to 100-120W better dissipation on those 980Ti and clock the hell out of it on AIBs but...moot point...the 1080 is still faster per Watt, still faster out of the box and still more versatile for the vast majority of the market applications.

Insisting on % gains and this and that while ignoring the reality of how the market works, is just showing diminished capacity to think outside of your own little box. Its like insisting on driving a 10K B18 Civic vs the new Type R...sure, the old is loud and fun and far from slow, but the new even @ stock is just much much faster in every way, requiring less effort while being so.
If you are willing to lose the forrest looking for that tree, have your way and enjoy the process. Just don't try-hard to prove you are better than anyone else who doesn't see your point.
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post #113 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcfoo View Post

I don't get why this Big Die thing is still so controversial...the new "small" thing is faster than the old "big" thing. Period. Proven. Done.

As it should be with every generation and has been for the most part. The problem is the new high cost of the small die. That is where the issue lies. People can claim all they want that "x80" cards launch at this high of prices always, but that too is now a problem since the 80 line is no longer what the 80 line used to be, what used to be the "x80", is now the Ti and Titan class, there are 2 steps above the "80". When the top card was an 80, and it was the biggest, baddest card around and it launched with $650 no one cared because they knew it was a huge chip, they knew it cost a lot to make, they knew it was the best. Now the 80 launches at the high price, but it is a midrange card in the lineup (2 cards above it, 2 cards below it, yes that means it is mid of the card range, does matter what name it has), and uses the same midrange die. That is what people are up in arms about, nothing to do with the new card being faster or slower than last gens top card, that should always be a given.
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post #114 of 177
The issue is small dies are inherently (much) cheaper to produce than big dies, yet they cost the same (Kepler) or even more (Pascal) than what the full fat big die cost years ago.
post #115 of 177
But they are not in the business of selling dies by the pound or the mm2 per se...sure, the die size is related to its cost but its a not linear relationship, especially for cutting edge lithographies. Yes, smaller dies cost less to produce vs. bigger / more complex dies of the same lithographic process. But these are not the same, so we are comparing apples to oranges.

If we want to keep it more apples - to - apples, look at how many transistors you are buying in each case:

The 1080 has 7.2Bil transistors, so you are buying much more than you did with the 980 @ 5.2Bil transistors, and not that much less than you did with the 980Ti @ 8Bill transistors.

So yes, the GP104 is a "small die" but packs far more than the GM & GK 104s did. It also has 2x the RAM, which adds cost regardless of bus width.
And it is the best chip today, but won't be "tomorrow", much like everybody knew that the days of the GM110 being the "best" were counted.

And rinse and repeat, the GP110 that will be ~11Bil transistors, will shine as the biggest and baddest for a year or so, only to yield to something smaller, cheaper and more efficient.
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post #116 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcfoo View Post

But they are not in the business of selling dies by the pound or the mm2 per se...sure, the die size is related to its cost but its a not linear relationship, especially for cutting edge lithographies. Yes, smaller dies cost less to produce vs. bigger / more complex dies of the same lithographic process. But these are not the same, so we are comparing apples to oranges.

If we want to keep it more apples - to - apples, look at how many transistors you are buying in each case:

The 1080 has 7.2Bil transistors, so you are buying much more than you did with the 980 @ 5.2Bil transistors, and not that much less than you did with the 980Ti @ 8Bill transistors.

So yes, the GP104 is a "small die" but packs far more than the GM & GK 104s did. It also has 2x the RAM, which adds cost regardless of bus width.
And it is the best chip today, but won't be "tomorrow", much like everybody knew that the days of the GM110 being the "best" were counted.

And rinse and repeat, the GP110 that will be ~11Bil transistors, will shine as the biggest and baddest for a year or so, only to yield to something smaller, cheaper and more efficient.

If you really wanted to keep it apples to apples, you must also take cost per transistor into account as well.



As you can see, cost/transistor at 28nm is roughly 60% the cost/transistor at 40nm.

GTX 580 had 3 billion transistors and would've cost $526 in 2012 dollars. GTX 680 had 3.54 billion transistors, and a "fair cost" based purely on transistor count would've been roughly (3.54 / 3 * 0.6 * $526) = $372, not the $499 MSRP.
Edited by magnek - 6/17/16 at 12:14pm
post #117 of 177
Reopened.

Please stay on topic.

Thanks.
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post #118 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnek View Post

The issue is small dies are inherently (much) cheaper to produce than big dies, yet they cost the same (Kepler) or even more (Pascal) than what the full fat big die cost years ago.

Real figures to put things into prospective:







Double the cost per 100 mm² from 28nm to 14nm FinFET but they will also be replacing chips twice the size so cost of production of the R9 390X(438 mm²) and RX 480(~220 mm²) should be pretty similar.
Edited by Slomo4shO - 6/17/16 at 5:26pm
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post #119 of 177
This will be nice. I was considering a budget 9xx series card for my spare PC, but couldn't really justify to myself the almost $200 after tax even a modest 960 would cost (I ended up buying a GTS 450 used for $35, which is more than ample for casual web browsing and video playing).

It sounds like I might want to revisit the 9xx cards in another couple of weeks, though - I have a 3GB 7950 in my main box, so any 3 GB model that can trade blows with it would be a possible upgrade.
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post #120 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slomo4shO View Post

Real figures to put things into prospective:







Double the cost per 100 mm² from 28nm to 14nm FinFET but they will also be replacing chips twice the size so cost of production of the R9 390X(438 mm²) and RX 480(~220 mm²) should be pretty similar.

Thx for the table, +rep there. So AMD's basically selling something costs as much as 390X for as low as $150 (cut down P10 / RX 470). Wow, they must be banking on low profit margin large volume sales. 480 and 470 must sell like hot cakes in order to be success for AMD. Seems like they give it all in for a victory or death strategy.
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