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post #21 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by pc-illiterate View Post

garbage talk? i think someone needs to learn.
Indeed
You people that think we can flow as 4, 5 or 6 vents worth of air into a case without have similar vent area for air to flow out.

As I have said before, airflow is is just like water flow. Granted, air compresses and water doesn't, but the same principles apply.

We can't have airflow into a case without the same amount of airflow going out of it.

The amount of air that will flow into a case and compress before fans reach their static pressure rating point is very very little .. a fraction of the pressure change it takes for us to feel a difference in pressure in our ears. You know, like when we roll up the car windows while driving 50mph, drive up into the mountains or fly in a plane. biggrin.gif

Once the fans reache reach their static pressure level there is no longer any airflow, only the pressure. "Static Pressure" rating is the maximum pressure fan is pushing when airflow stops. Stop and static mean there is no movement


How can you people not understand that if we have 4, 5 or 6 fans on intake vents we need simliar exhaust area, and that 1 or 2 exhaust vents plus the small amount of area from screw holes and cracks around panels is not going to be a similar amount of area to exhaust that air .. and that this much smaller airflow area severely limits the amount of air the intakes can flow into the case?

Surely you guys understand that more air can flow thru a 120mm or 140mm grilled vent than thru all the cracks around side panels, screw holes, and other small air leaks in the case.
post #22 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by doyll View Post

Indeed
You people that think we can flow as 4, 5 or 6 vents worth of air into a case without have similar vent area for air to flow out.

As I have said before, airflow is is just like water flow. Granted, air compresses and water doesn't, but the same principles apply.

We can't have airflow into a case without the same amount of airflow going out of it.

The amount of air that will flow into a case and compress before fans reach their static pressure rating point is very very little .. a fraction of the pressure change it takes for us to feel a difference in pressure in our ears. You know, like when we roll up the car windows while driving 50mph, drive up into the mountains or fly in a plane. biggrin.gif

Once the fans reache reach their static pressure level there is no longer any airflow, only the pressure. "Static Pressure" rating is the maximum pressure fan is pushing when airflow stops. Stop and static mean there is no movement


How can you people not understand that if we have 4, 5 or 6 fans on intake vents we need simliar exhaust area, and that 1 or 2 exhaust vents plus the small amount of area from screw holes and cracks around panels is not going to be a similar amount of area to exhaust that air .. and that this much smaller airflow area severely limits the amount of air the intakes can flow into the case?

Surely you guys understand that more air can flow thru a 120mm or 140mm grilled vent than thru all the cracks around side panels, screw holes, and other small air leaks in the case.

Let me try to understand you. You are saying for example if I have 3 fans pushing 1 cfm in to my case for a total of 3 cfm total flow. And I only have one fan pulling 2 cfm out of the case. That there is no possible way that 1 cfm can escape from the case? The case goes positive and the effective total flow will be 2 cfm? This is just not the case. There are enough gaps, cracks and non-fan hole vents to easily let 1 cfm escape. If my case only had a total 60mm of non-fan vents. The air could and would flow out at twice the velocity as if there was 120mm worth of vent area. I don’t Know what the total velocity or total volume that can escape from 60 mm or 120mm of vent area, but I would bet it’s a lot more than 5 or 6 cfm.

Pressure on the system goes up velocity increases and total flow stays the same. You are giving the PC case way too much restrictive credit. 99% of PC cases are just not built to the standard to achieve this level of restriction This is how your water tank example would work.
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post #23 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by apw63 View Post

1- Let me try to understand you.
2- You are saying for example if I have 3 fans pushing 1 cfm in to my case for a total of 3 cfm total flow.
3- And I only have one fan pulling 2 cfm out of the case.
4- That there is no possible way that 1 cfm can escape from the case?
5- The case goes positive and the effective total flow will be 2 cfm?
6- This is just not the case.
7- There are enough gaps, cracks and non-fan hole vents to easily let 1 cfm escape.
8- If my case only had a total 60mm of non-fan vents.
9- The air could and would flow out at twice the velocity as if there was 120mm worth of vent area.
10- I don’t Know what the total velocity or total volume that can escape from 60 mm or 120mm of vent area, but I would bet it’s a lot more than 5 or 6 cfm.

11- Pressure on the system goes up velocity increases and total flow stays the same.
12-You are giving the PC case way too much restrictive credit.
13- 99% of PC cases are just not built to the standard to achieve this level of restriction
14-This is how your water tank example would work

.
I took the liberty of numbering each of your sentences and will answer each individually:
1- You are not trying to understand.
2- No, because fans realistically flow between 20cfm and 50cfm of air each at near silent to quiet sound levels.
3- No, for same reasons as above.
4- Yes, 1cfm can easily escape from case.
5- No, because of reasons given in 2.
6- Correct, this is not the case, because we are dealing with more like 100cfm to 150cfm from 3 fans, not 3cfm.
7- yes
8- not a complete sentence
9- No because the 60mm outlet restriction increases pressure in the case which lowers the 120mm intkae airflow.
10- Yes it is, but we are dealing with 60 - 150cfm.

11- No but I won't try to explain why, it's too complicated.
12- No
13- I think it's 100% of air cooled PC cases
14- No
post #24 of 57
He is correct. You are completely misunderstanding the actual effects of a positive pressure scenario.

1. Let's say you have three fans that are rotating at a speed in which they would produce 50 CFM each in a free air application, for a total of 150 CFM.
2. You are blowing those fans into an enclosure which is actively moving 50 CFM with a fan, and can passively allow air out with resistence.
3. You now have those intake fans not blowing into a free air situation, they are blowing into a situation where there is resistance involved.
4. Said resistance takes the 150 CFM that would be achieved in free air (with proper exhaust), and throttles it back accordingly.
5. With said resistance, you are achieving somewhere in between the 50 CFM that can flow freely and the 150 CFM that the intake fans are unsuccessfully attempting to produce.
6. This results in the intake fans being far less effective, and needing to run at far higher speeds to achieve the same result.
post #25 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by ciarlatano View Post

He is correct. You are completely misunderstanding the actual effects of a positive pressure scenario.

1. Let's say you have three fans that are rotating at a speed in which they would produce 50 CFM each in a free air application, for a total of 150 CFM.
2. You are blowing those fans into an enclosure which is actively moving 50 CFM with a fan, and can passively allow air out with resistence.
3. You now have those intake fans not blowing into a free air situation, they are blowing into a situation where there is resistance involved.
4. Said resistance takes the 150 CFM that would be achieved in free air (with proper exhaust), and throttles it back accordingly.
5. With said resistance, you are achieving somewhere in between the 50 CFM that can flow freely and the 150 CFM that the intake fans are unsuccessfully attempting to produce.
6. This results in the intake fans being far less effective, and needing to run at far higher speeds to achieve the same result.

No I fully understand. I believe you guys are giving PC cases way to much credit of resistance. Do I bereave you can push an infinite amount of air to a case, and have is all exhaust out a pin hold, no I do not. But I can and have had 6 120mm 2000rpm fans pushing in and only 240mm of exhaust area. All of the air that these 6 fans can push comes out of the 2 fan holes easily. I could block off 120mm and still have more that enough exhaust area. Few cases seal up around the exhaust or entrance fan areas. There is a lot of open space around the fans and other areas of the case. You guys are trying to talk in chalkboard theory absolutes, and this is just not the case in real world application.
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post #26 of 57
The issue is the whole P/Q curve stuff. I've seen it for a couple of years here on OCN, people give it way too much credit vs. real world application. It's a great resource for theory on airflow resistance, but to apply it absolutely to every build and case is just ludicrous. Theory is just that, and is a basis for fundamental rules to go by, but anyone who doesn't understand that the environmental surroundings will change every theory per instance, then they are just uninformed.
 
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post #27 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by apw63 View Post

No I fully understand. I believe you guys are giving PC cases way to much credit of resistance. Do I bereave you can push an infinite amount of air to a case, and have is all exhaust out a pin hold, no I do not. But I can and have had 6 120mm 2000rpm fans pushing in and only 240mm of exhaust area. All of the air that these 6 fans can push comes out of the 2 fan holes easily. I could block off 120mm and still have more that enough exhaust area. Few cases seal up around the exhaust or entrance fan areas. There is a lot of open space around the fans and other areas of the case. You guys are trying to talk in chalkboard theory absolutes, and this is just not the case in real world application.
If you even half understood you would not be arguing with us.
Whatever amount of air you push into a case does indeed come out. That is a proven fact and exactly what we are talking about. But how the volume of that amount is the part of your statement you do not understand. I don't know what case you were using, and it really doesn't matter. The point is the venting area of the case needs to be divided equally to get optimum airflow. The smaller amount of area of intake or exhaust is the determines the maximum amount of flow through the case. This includes the area of all the screw holes, socket holes, cracks and gaps everywhere in the case as well as the area of the vents.

To put it simply, the amount of case airflow from your 6x 120mm 2000rpm fans was 90-95% the 240mm of exhaust area was flowing combined with the 5-10% the leaks in case were letting out.

As for "giving PC cases way to much credit of resistance", your understanding of airflow is extreme myopic and misguided. Read this about case vent resistance http://www.silverstonetek.com/techtalk_cont.php?tid=wh_chessis&area=en

And this https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Effects-of-Grill-Patterns-on-Fan-Performance-Noise-107/

After rationally considering those facts about grill restriction, consider how much more restrictive the case areas without any vents are.

But there is even a bigger problem with your understanding of airflow. You rant about how whatever the fans can push in versus comes out, you seem completely blind the importance of how the air flow through the case .. especially if it is an air cooled system. The key is supply case with airlfow that allows the components' heated exhaust to flow out of the case without mixing with (and heating up) the cool airflow to components. This means the case needs to flow a little more air than the components use to and from them, not blow air in assuming 6x intakes and 240mm exhaust are flowing it where it needs to go and out again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radnad View Post

The issue is the whole P/Q curve stuff. I've seen it for a couple of years here on OCN, people give it way too much credit vs. real world application. It's a great resource for theory on airflow resistance, but to apply it absolutely to every build and case is just ludicrous. Theory is just that, and is a basis for fundamental rules to go by, but anyone who doesn't understand that the environmental surroundings will change every theory per instance, then they are just uninformed.
Your above posts need explaination. What do you mean by your first sentence?
Edited by doyll - 6/26/16 at 11:24pm
post #28 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by doyll View Post

If you even half understood you would not be arguing with us.
Whatever amount of air you push into a case does indeed come out. That is a proven fact and exactly what we are talking about. But how the volume of that amount is the part of your statement you do not understand. I don't know what case you were using, and it really doesn't matter. The point is the venting area of the case needs to be divided equally to get optimum airflow. The smaller amount of area of intake or exhaust is the determines the maximum amount of flow through the case. This includes the area of all the screw holes, socket holes, cracks and gaps everywhere in the case as well as the area of the vents.

To put it simply, the amount of case airflow from your 6x 120mm 2000rpm fans was 90-95% the 240mm of exhaust area was flowing combined with the 5-10% the leaks in case were letting out.

As for "giving PC cases way to much credit of resistance", your understanding of airflow is extreme myopic and misguided. Read this about case vent resistance http://www.silverstonetek.com/techtalk_cont.php?tid=wh_chessis&area=en

And this https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Effects-of-Grill-Patterns-on-Fan-Performance-Noise-107/

After rationally considering those facts about grill restriction, consider how much more restrictive the case areas without any vents are.

But there is even a bigger problem with your understanding of airflow. You rant about how whatever the fans can push in versus comes out, you seem completely blind the importance of how the air flow through the case .. especially if it is an air cooled system. The key is supply case with airlfow that allows the components' heated exhaust to flow out of the case without mixing with (and heating up) the cool airflow to components. This means the case needs to flow a little more air than the components use to and from them, not blow air in assuming 6x intakes and 240mm exhaust are flowing it where it needs to go and out again.
Your above posts need explaination. What do you mean by your first sentence?


Here is your first error, this is not an argument this is a discussion. This is what makes a community.

Again your logic is flawed you are totally missing what I have been saying. The articles you linked to are about how much a fans performance is hindered by fan mesh. These articles have no baring on how much air volume can pass through a 120mm fan hole or other vent areas. You are trying to compare apples to oranges. If the case is set up correctly exhaust fans are not 100% needed. Can all of the fan holes be intake no they can not. You are to caught up in conventional thinking, one fan in one fan out.

It baffles me that you can not get the concept that as internal case pressure increased exit velocity increases.

Choked flow

Talk:Choked flow
Edited by apw63 - 6/27/16 at 8:20am
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post #29 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by apw63 View Post

Here is your first error, this is not an argument this is a discussion. This is what makes a community.

Again your logic is flawed you are totally missing what I have been saying. The articles you linked to are about how much a fans performance is hindered by fan mesh. These articles have no baring on how much air volume can pass through a 120mm fan hole or other vent areas. You are trying to compare apples to oranges. If the case is set up correctly exhaust fans are not 100% needed. Can all of the fan holes be intake no they can not. You are to caught up in conventional thinking, one fan in one fan out.

It baffles me that you can not get the concept that as internal case pressure increased exit velocity increases.

Choked flow

Talk:Choked flow
You are not discussing, you are arguing your totally ill-logical and ill-informed ideas like this is a debate contest.

I used case grill resistance as an example of how much it affect airflow hoping you would understand if a grill only blocking 10% of the airflow area hinders airflow, that a panel with a a small crack around it's edges and a few screw holes is many times more restriction.

If you had any idea what you were talking about you would not have brought up choked flow. It has nothing to do with this discussion.
post #30 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by doyll View Post

You are not discussing, you are arguing your totally ill-logical and ill-informed ideas like this is a debate contest.

I used case grill resistance as an example of how much it affect airflow hoping you would understand if a grill only blocking 10% of the airflow area hinders airflow, that a panel with a a small crack around it's edges and a few screw holes is many times more restriction.

If you had any idea what you were talking about you would not have brought up choked flow. It has nothing to do with this discussion.


I understand that if someone does not agree with your point of view or your conception of a theory then they are wrong.. This forum is not the doyll show. I choose not to follow your views or understandings. If you choose not to read my post and understand what I'm saying then that's find. It's how community's work.
Project #2
(34 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel i7-4790k ASUS Maximus Formula VII  ASUS GTX780-DC2OC-3GD5 G-SYNC Support GeForce G... CORSAIR DOMINATOR GT DDR3 2133 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
ocz vertex 4 OCZ 460 WD Black Hitachi Deskstar 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
Aquacomputer aquaero 6 PRO  Aquacomputer aqualis XT 2 EK-DDC Heatsink Housing for DDC pumps  Aquacomputer aquacover dual DDC 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
Aquacomputer flow rate sensor mps flow 400 aquacomputer filter with stainless steel mesh 2 Aquacomputer inline temp sensor 3 Aquacomputer temp sensor 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
EK 12mm OD Solid Tube - Clear Bitspower Multi-Link Adapter 12mm Bitspower True Silver Stop Fitting  2 Swiftech MCP35X  
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
EK-FC780 GTX DCII - Nickel EK Monarch Series X4 Ram Clean CSQ Nickel 2 XSCP RX360 v2 1 XSCP RX240 v2 
CoolingCoolingCoolingOS
8 Noisblocker M12-P PWM 1000-2000 RPM 2 360mm, 1 240mm XSCP Radiator Gaskets 3 Phobya Nano-G 14 Black Silent PWM Fan Win 7 Pro 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Samsung SyncMaster P2450H Logitech G15 Corsair AX850 Caselabs Mercury S8 & Pedestal 
MouseAudio
Logitech G9 On board RealTek HD 
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Project #2
(34 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel i7-4790k ASUS Maximus Formula VII  ASUS GTX780-DC2OC-3GD5 G-SYNC Support GeForce G... CORSAIR DOMINATOR GT DDR3 2133 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
ocz vertex 4 OCZ 460 WD Black Hitachi Deskstar 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
Aquacomputer aquaero 6 PRO  Aquacomputer aqualis XT 2 EK-DDC Heatsink Housing for DDC pumps  Aquacomputer aquacover dual DDC 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
Aquacomputer flow rate sensor mps flow 400 aquacomputer filter with stainless steel mesh 2 Aquacomputer inline temp sensor 3 Aquacomputer temp sensor 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
EK 12mm OD Solid Tube - Clear Bitspower Multi-Link Adapter 12mm Bitspower True Silver Stop Fitting  2 Swiftech MCP35X  
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
EK-FC780 GTX DCII - Nickel EK Monarch Series X4 Ram Clean CSQ Nickel 2 XSCP RX360 v2 1 XSCP RX240 v2 
CoolingCoolingCoolingOS
8 Noisblocker M12-P PWM 1000-2000 RPM 2 360mm, 1 240mm XSCP Radiator Gaskets 3 Phobya Nano-G 14 Black Silent PWM Fan Win 7 Pro 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Samsung SyncMaster P2450H Logitech G15 Corsair AX850 Caselabs Mercury S8 & Pedestal 
MouseAudio
Logitech G9 On board RealTek HD 
  hide details  
Reply
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