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3310 laggy? Maybe is your nvidia card :) - Page 6

post #51 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by c0dy View Post

Didn't the guys over at blurbusters tested and confirmed that GPU Scaling adds no inputlag?

It SHOULDN'T add input lag.
On AMD cards, it seems clean.
All of the problems have been with Nvidia video cards. Some Nvidia drivers have been to add more than standard amounts of input lag, and there were some Nvidia drivers where display scaling didn't work at all. That was some time ago, though.

There have been three things when dealing with GPU scaling/Display scaling, and the big adder of input lag: Prerendered frames.

1) Display scaling generally only works in Directx 9, and on the windows desktop.
2) AMD video cards add either 0 frames or 1 frame from display scaling. I sure can't see a difference.
3) For most directx 9 games, the default prerender limit (Max Frames allowed/frames ahead / Flip Queue Size) is 3. This usually adds input lag unless the game engine has its own prerendering.
You can set this to 1 for the lowest input lag, although there are some games where this can cause erratic non lag issues (like cursor stuttering). One famous example is COD4: Modern Warfare. Default prerender limit (3) is glass smooth in this game, but the input lag is *NOTICABLE*. Using a prerender limit of 2 makes things snappier but you start seeing noticeable jitters while turning, which destroys immersion. Using "1" makes things very snappy (almost like Vsync off) but the jitters completely remove the positive benefit of having no input lag. Only thing you can do is turn off Vsync or use something like Radeon Pro (which I haven't tested in this).

This used to accept a value of "0" and 0 worked in the last Windows XP drivers for both AMD and Nvidia. I don't know if "0" worked on the release video card drivers at windows 7 release, but it was removed from the drivers, so now "0" is the same as default (3).
4) As far as I know, prerender / flip queue size ONLY affects VSYNC ON.

Flip Queue Size (AMD) does nothing for DirectX 10+. That's controlled by the engine. I do NOT know if the Nvidia prerender limit affects directX 10+ stuff or not--I don't own an Nvidia card.
Edited by Falkentyne - 6/23/16 at 5:04pm
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post #52 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncck View Post

It does, I've tested it myself and it makes the image you see 'smoother' but also adds a tiny amount of input delay; compared to perform scaling on display/no scaling the image is just a tad less 'smooth' but your input feels better. It's a less extreme feeling from max pre-render 3 to 1. You could totally use it and be fine, it's not like v-sync type lag it's similar lag to going from no aliasing to say 4x aliasing, not sure how it works but if you go between the two one feels 'slower' even if your framerate is the same

One thing that's weird is everytime I play on a non-stretched 4:3 resolution everything 'seems' really smooth but I'm guessing that's just the monitor having an easier time processing the image/a more stable higher framerate? Or it could just be that's how it looks at that resolution and I'm not used to it. I remember the change from 60 to 75hz being big and then 75 to 120hz feeling weird as well... not going to lie I wouldn't mind a 4:3 CRT with 160hz.. LCDs still don't compare to those sweet colors and smooth image

Can you please turn off vsync and then test prerender limit 1-3 and see if there's a difference?
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post #53 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Falkentyne View Post

Can you please turn off vsync and then test prerender limit 1-3 and see if there's a difference?

I don't use v-sync, I use pre-render frames 1 for the past 5 years. If you were to set it to 3 I could notice it within 20 seconds of being in-game; so long as you 'force' the game to use it

I also forgot that on windows 7 I disable aero; for games that run 'borderless full-screen' it makes them run much smoother cause the aero forces vertical sync on the desktop in windows 7; mileage may vary per game of course. I know it helped a ton in natural selection2
Edited by ncck - 6/23/16 at 7:17pm
post #54 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archus View Post

Thank you! I'll try downloading old drivers and playing around with scaling options. Maybe c0dy is right and it is something not worth looking into, nevertheless, I''m curious now smile.gif

Pretty sure 2233rz doesn't have own scaler that you can control.
post #55 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Falkentyne View Post

It SHOULDN'T add input lag.
On AMD cards, it seems clean.
All of the problems have been with Nvidia video cards. Some Nvidia drivers have been to add more than standard amounts of input lag, and there were some Nvidia drivers where display scaling didn't work at all. That was some time ago, though.

There have been three things when dealing with GPU scaling/Display scaling, and the big adder of input lag: Prerendered frames.

1) Display scaling generally only works in Directx 9, and on the windows desktop.
2) AMD video cards add either 0 frames or 1 frame from display scaling. I sure can't see a difference.
3) For most directx 9 games, the default prerender limit (Max Frames allowed/frames ahead / Flip Queue Size) is 3. This usually adds input lag unless the game engine has its own prerendering.
You can set this to 1 for the lowest input lag, although there are some games where this can cause erratic non lag issues (like cursor stuttering). One famous example is COD4: Modern Warfare. Default prerender limit (3) is glass smooth in this game, but the input lag is *NOTICABLE*. Using a prerender limit of 2 makes things snappier but you start seeing noticeable jitters while turning, which destroys immersion. Using "1" makes things very snappy (almost like Vsync off) but the jitters completely remove the positive benefit of having no input lag. Only thing you can do is turn off Vsync or use something like Radeon Pro (which I haven't tested in this).

This used to accept a value of "0" and 0 worked in the last Windows XP drivers for both AMD and Nvidia. I don't know if "0" worked on the release video card drivers at windows 7 release, but it was removed from the drivers, so now "0" is the same as default (3).
4) As far as I know, prerender / flip queue size ONLY affects VSYNC ON.

Flip Queue Size (AMD) does nothing for DirectX 10+. That's controlled by the engine. I do NOT know if the Nvidia prerender limit affects directX 10+ stuff or not--I don't own an Nvidia card.

well the new drivers on amd that say Flip queue exist for DirectX10


In addition to Shader Cache AMD has also introduced additional optimizations focused on giving Radeon users a better gaming experience one of which is a "newly" optimized flip queue size. Which allows your system to always capture the latest positional information from your mouse and the latest input from your keyboard, significantly reducing input latency.

Read more: http://wccftech.com/amd-radeon-software-crimson-edition-released/#ixzz4CXCd8jQS

so you Don't know if flip queue work or not but its doesn't matter as long you use display scale smile.gif
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post #56 of 67
It does but no one knows how to change it.
It's either controlled by games themselves or it's the variable "Main 3D", but I don't know if anyone has actually tested it, and it still hasn't been proven what "Main3D" and "Main3D_SET" changes.

The registry variable "FlipQueueSize" is *ONLY* for Directx 9 and older. It does NOTHING for DX10.
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post #57 of 67
Hey guys.

I have had terrible, horrible input lag, like having vsync on the past 4 months, completely unnatural mouse behavior. I have almost replaced everything in my PC that I suspected could cause it, but nothing helped.

Today I kinda rage went into the nvidia controlpanel and I started spamming the scaling options, changing back and forth between scalings, like "no-scaling" "aspect ratio" "display" and somehow it snapped and started acting normal again.. now I feel the most normal mouse behavior that I have for the past 4 months.

What could have caused this? is my monitor acting up? graphics card? I have tried several graphics cards, both had the same problem.. has to be the monitor right?


Specs:

I5-3570K / I5-6600K
MSI Z77A-G43 / Asrock BTC H61 / MSI B150 Gaming M3
MSI GTX 660 TI / GTX 960
Kingston HyperX 8GB / Kingston Fury Black 16 GB
Corsair TX650 / Evga SuperNova G2 650w
Intel 520 SSD / Samsung 850 Evo
BenQ XL2411T


Yes I have:

- Tried another CPU
- Tried another graphics card
- Downgrading drivers, updating all drivers
- BIOS flashing
- Tried another RAM
- Tried three seperate motherboards
- Tried a tons of mice
- Tried another PSU
- Tried another SSD
- Reinstalled windows 50 times.
- All temperatures are fine, both on idle and load.
- All fps is fine, 300 stable.
- No crashing, no freezing... just pure bad mouse behavior that got "fixed" or atleast feels a tons better than before.
- Changing scalings yet again does not break it or do any difference... it seems that it just snapped into a working condition, but not perfect.


The only thing I have not replaced (yet) is the monitor. And there is no way I can try one, since all my relatives use laptops or tablets.
Edited by Aymanb - 7/5/16 at 4:45am
post #58 of 67
Monitors don't cause input lag (Unless the processing time of the monitor is garbage). That's just Nvidia drivers for you.
Maybe changing options reset the prerender limit? Hard to say.

One thing you can always try if you suspect a driver setting is borked is to uninstall drivers in safe mode with Wagnard's Display Driver Uninstaller (DDU).
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post #59 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Falkentyne View Post

Monitors don't cause input lag (Unless the processing time of the monitor is garbage). That's just Nvidia drivers for you.
Maybe changing options reset the prerender limit? Hard to say.

One thing you can always try if you suspect a driver setting is borked is to uninstall drivers in safe mode with Wagnard's Display Driver Uninstaller (DDU).

Isn't it the same with a complete new windows installation? I've formatted a thousand times with different drivers. I don't know if it's input lag to be honest, I just know that it felt/feels incredibly unbalanced and bad, like something can't keep up until I snapped it to working in the scalings options.

Also no other nvidia option does anything, I've tried defaults/max rendered frames etc etc. only the scalings did the trick. I'm also fairly sure that this used to happen without the nvidia drivers installed too.

I'm also not talking about some sort of preference lag where I just don't feel confident playing, it was literally unplayable state.. I couldn't move the mouse to a side, then back to the previous spot I was aiming at without ending 3 meters away. I was even failing desktop icons because of the "on ice" feel. It was terrible.

Now it's back on a much much more natural state, the difference is huge, I'm just not convinced that it's on 100% yet... as it still doesn't feel like the good old days, but it's still a tons better than before, It's atleast in a playable state now until I can track the problem down further.
Edited by Aymanb - 7/5/16 at 3:02pm
post #60 of 67
I wish I could help but as I said I don't have an Nvidia video card.
The only thing I really know about Nvidia is the Nvidia control panel creates GPU scaled resolutions, and GPU scaling can add lag. ToastyX CRU Creates EDID overrides (display scaled resolutions).
However native resolutions should always perform properly because "Scaling" scales resolutions based on the native resolution, e.g. downsampling or upsampling (I think one term is called "Supersampling"). E.g. creating a 3840x2160 resolution on a 1920x1080 monitor is basically doing 4x Supersampling antialiasing, with the exception that the HUD itself (including text, etc) acts like it's on a x2160 resolution, while "true" supersampling is rendering the native resolution with more pixel samples, rather than rendering a higher resolution and displaying that on a physical screen with less pixels.

Getting off topic but you get the point.

I do not know if the Nvidia control panel can create a display scaled lower than native resolution. Even though you can enter advanced timings. e.g. active horizontal and vertical pixels, porch, sync, and horizontal and vertical totals, if you create a 1024x768 @120hz custom resolution with the ACTIVE and screen pixels data both being 1024x768, is it display scaled if you set "Display - no scaling"?

Are you bored enough to check?
(if your monitor itself says "1024x768" then it's display scaled. If it says 1920x1080 or 2560x1440 (if ur on a 1440p), then it's GPU scaled.
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