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AIOs Why they should only be considered a short term product. - Page 2

post #11 of 366
Are we talking all CLCs or just some? Because fyi R 9 295X2, Radeon Pro Duo, EVGA Nvidia cards, etc etc. All pretty much run on CLCs and pretty sure theyre not meant to be short term lol.

I do agree that some are absolutely made like garbage and out of aluminum none the less. And btw having worked on cars in the past 10years or so (and the glycol is higher in content, all the parts are mostly aluminum and they run quite a bit hotter then any CLC ever will), the issue isnt the glycol getting thicker.

I have never in my life seen ethylene glycol "get thicker". Only way it would is if it came into contact with another substance. Unless youre thinking of Glycerol which is a totally different chemical liquid. Btw ive done some flushes on some cars that had 10year old glycol contents in them and it was never "thick", corroded, rusty, and orange yea of course but enver thick.

It is after all at least 50% water. The issue why they leak is probably why anything aluminum leaks, it starts to pit and the seals no longer can do theyre job and they leak.

Now im basing this on antifreeze (ethylene glycol) which is pretty much the exact same thing used in watercooling setups.

I will quote an article.

"As we saw earlier in Part I, glycol has a much higher viscosity (resistance to flow) than water. Adding antifreeze to your PC water-cooling system will increase the viscosity of the coolant and can reduce the overall flow rate thru the system. In addition, the thermal conductivity and specific heat of glycol is not as good as water. Combining these factors may result in a measurable drop in cooling performance.

Another potential disadvantage of using glycol based antifreeze for corrosion protection in your PC water-cooling system is that it may not provide optimal protection due to a relatively low concentration. Antifreeze is designed to be mixed with water at a 50:50 mix. Most PC enthusiast use a 15%~20% antifreeze to water mix. This means the concentration of corrosion inhibitors is much lower than what the manufacturer intended. Increasing the coolant mix to 50:50 would significantly decrease the coolant’s flow rate and ability to transfer/transport heat.{mospagebreak}

Most water-cooled PCs operate at ambient room temperatures, so there is usually no need to protect the water from freezing or to extend the boiling point. Systems that incorporate some form of active cooling (Peltier devices, refrigeration, etc.) may require freeze protection. The first thing that comes to most people’s mind is automotive antifreeze. But for all the reasons listed above, glycol based antifreeze may not be the best choice."

You can see its thicker to begin with, BUT that is very dependent on concentration, if its only mix 15/85 or 25/75 its no where near as viscous as whats used in cars. So in shorts its viscous to begin with, it doesnt get thicker in time even with evaporation which doesnt happen since its a sealed unit.

http://www.overclockers.com/pc-water-coolant-chemistry-part-ii/
    
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post #12 of 366
Thread Starter 
We don't use the same material used in cars as that raises a different set of concerns esp on Thermodynamics and very few liquid cooled pc's sit out side at sub zero temps. How ever there needs to be some degree of sub zero temp compensation as shipping coolants world wide needs some front protection esp when sat on ships for long periods of time.

Viscosity issues can be over come via other methods rather than using antifreeze such as water based surfactants (anionic, cationic and non-ionic) but these again can some times raise other concerns as we have found out in the lab a few times.

One thing noted above is the ratio of 50/50 glycol to water, this is again were you add in more inhibitors and biocide to protect a liquid cooling system and if done correctly works very well. Hence another reason why coolants should differ in a closed loop system.

Propylene glyco can get thicker much quicker then ethylene glycol in high heat systems. This is due to the mix deteriorates over time, eventually wearing out as it deteriorates, it increases in acidity, and can damage your system components.

There are lots of white papers in the solar industry reference these issues.
post #13 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post

We don't use the same material used in cars as that raises a different set of concerns esp on Thermodynamics and very few liquid cooled pc's sit out side at sub zero temps. How ever there needs to be some degree of sub zero temp compensation as shipping coolants world wide needs some front protection esp when sat on ships for long periods of time.

Viscosity issues can be over come via other methods rather than using antifreeze such as water based surfactants (anionic, cationic and non-ionic) but these again can some times raise other concerns as we have found out in the lab a few times.

One thing noted above is the ratio of 50/50 glycol to water, this is again were you add in more inhibitors and biocide to protect a liquid cooling system and if done correctly works very well. Hence another reason why coolants should differ in a closed loop system.

Propylene glyco can get thicker much quicker then ethylene glycol in high heat systems. This is due to the mix deteriorates over time, eventually wearing out as it deteriorates, it increases in acidity, and can damage your system components.

There are lots of white papers in the solar industry reference these issues.

Good stuff however propylene and ethylene glycol wont get thicker at higher temps theyll get thinner and then cool back down to normal viscocity. I think the initial pump start with something thick takes its toll on the pump and them being so tiny and cheaply made theyre going to give. Guess its just my opinion but i dont think its totally a coolant issue but also the way theyre made and designed.

Also lets not forget that orings really dont last forever and the fact that in clcs comapred to a custom loop, one that doesnt have too many 90s and 45s adapters there is less orings to leak.

For example one of my ekwb 90° adapters started to leak after one month just from the angle the tubing was pulling on it, thats also a major issue for clcs.

But again there are plenty of nvidia and amd cards that have gone YEARS without issue and they also use a coolant of types as their rads are again aluminum.
    
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post #14 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheReciever View Post

Like I asked in the last thread about this,

Find me a better cooler for 45 USD with 3" clearance and I'd be game. CLC's were popular among SFF users and somehow it spilled over into every desktop, not sure why though for the 120mm models

Better than Seidon 120V?
The thing is, only SPCR test performance at certain noise levels so there's really not enough data to back up the claim that any CLC is better (in terms of peformance to noise) than any low-profile heatsink, or vice versa. It's not surprising to see the noisiest products being placed on top of the performance charts. Almost any low-profile heatsink is quieter but at the same time unsurprisingly hotter.

I think 45USD should be spent on a case with better layout like the Node 304 or Core 500, coupled with an affordable tower heatsink.
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post #15 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smanci View Post

Better than Seidon 120V?
The thing is, only SPCR test performance at certain noise levels so there's really not enough data to back up the claim that any CLC is better (in terms of peformance to noise) than any low-profile heatsink, or vice versa. It's not surprising to see the noisiest products being placed on top of the performance charts. Almost any low-profile heatsink is quieter but at the same time unsurprisingly hotter.

I think 45USD should be spent on a case with better layout like the Node 304 or Core 500, coupled with an affordable tower heatsink.

Those cases dont have any local pickup and would have put me over budget on my system.

To be honest, I would have picked up the Core 500 over what I have as I love Fractal cases, but the budget came first. Which is why I asked the question in its rigid capacity.

Im not complaining about performance, it carries my 2500k to 4.8Ghz. Though when members use generalizing statements without considering the many different configurations I get a little put off from reading the forums for a while.

edit: I was mistaken about price, I bought the seidon 120v for 60 USD, I had a rebate for 15 though technically still havent received it yet.
    
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post #16 of 366
OP is a rep of a custom water cooling store. Do you think he would be friendly to CLC's? Nah, he wants you to spend $1,000 on a custom water loop. i get it, it's his job. He wants you to spend $40 for a little metal fitting and $100 on a pump that costs $5 to manufacture. If that's what people want to do, go for it. Lots of people waste money on all kinds of hobbies and that's fine as long as you realize you really aren't going to get much pay-off for your investment.

Now, there's no doubt a custom loop will usually give better performance. They have higher flow rates for one. But the difference is not big enough for me to spend many hundreds or thousands of dollars on. Sorry, it's just not. Especially nowadays that CLC's have gotten so much better than they were 5 years ago.

And it's hysterical how the OP bashes glycol coolants when he sells them on his site. Not only that, he sells toxic Ethylene Glycol coolants and then claims they were certified as "safe" in an EPA lab. Note how the lab is EPA certified -- a clever use of words to trick you into believing the EPA itself has approved it as safe. They don't. They haven't. They never will. Ethylene Glycol is highly poisonous. 200mL can kill an adult human.

If you're going to run a custom loop, go buy some inhibited Propylene Glycol (PG) and some distilled water. That's all you need. PG is the safe alternative to Ethylene Glycol and is what is used in most commercial anti-freeze products today. EG was phased out decades ago (at least for consumer use). PG is safe to eat, drink or inhale. I am sitting here inhaling PG right now on my vape. PG has slightly lower thermal conductivity than EG, but it's not by much.

Inhibited PG can be had online for $25 a gallon. Search for Biodiesel stores (people who build their own biodiesel engines and run their own solar panels use inhibited PG as a coolant).
Edited by thiussat - 6/21/16 at 8:24pm
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post #17 of 366
Thread Starter 
Quote:
OP is a rep of a custom water cooling store. Do you think he would be friendly to CLC's?

OP supplies CLC's coolants .....
Quote:
Not only that, he sells toxic Ethylene Glycol coolants

Our Ethylene Glycol is safe thank you smile.gif http://mayhems.net/sds/xt1/250mll/xt1_clear_250ml.pdf - http://www.google.co.uk/patents/US8206607
Quote:
And it's hysterical how the OP bashes glycol coolants

Were not bashing glycols (how ever i worded it wrong above) some sealed AIOs have silicates that should not be used (some not all car engine coolants use them) that causes issues over long periods of time, Check white papers with plenty of information, sealed units should use such products as proven though out the thermal industry in HVAC , Solar power sealed system and maintenance systems. nice little guide for you too read -> http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedLiteratureDOWCOM/dh_010e/0901b8038010e417.pdf?filepath=heattrans/pdfs/noreg/180-01286.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc

PG isn't the best fluid is it less thermal ineffective than EG how ever there are alternative such a glycerol / glycerin. You have have other much better fluids than PG. Check out many white white papers showing the issues of PG in closed loop systems mind you these are also contradictory white papers so the argument is pretty much void. We provide PG, EG, VG and all manner of glycerol and glycerin products though out the industry, water cooling is just one of them. All coolants need to be refreshed over a period of time unless they have a filter in them. Inhibitors only last so long, biocides only last so long. sealed units cannot be cleansed of particulates nor biomass build up. This is what leads to there eventual fail (depended on heats loads).
Quote:
people who build their own biodiesel engines and run their own solar panels use inhibited PG as a coolant

and they are refreshed / changed out unlike sealed all in one units which do not have filters. Why do you think you can change out you radiator fluids in a car.
Edited by Mayhem - 6/21/16 at 11:56pm
post #18 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by thiussat View Post

OP is a rep of a custom water cooling store. Do you think he would be friendly to CLC's? Nah, he wants you to spend $1,000 on a custom water loop. i get it, it's his job. He wants you to spend $40 for a little metal fitting and $100 on a pump that costs $5 to manufacture. If that's what people want to do, go for it. Lots of people waste money on all kinds of hobbies and that's fine as long as you realize you really aren't going to get much pay-off for your investment.

I highly doubt you even know about watercooling. You can build a nice custom loop for well under $500 or even lower.
CLC for the likes of Asetek are a waste and just bad for the industry. Too many times I spent over the years replacing them in systems and throwing them out.
    
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post #19 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by thiussat View Post

OP is a rep of a custom water cooling store. Do you think he would be friendly to CLC's? Nah, he wants you to spend $1,000 on a custom water loop. i get it, it's his job. He wants you to spend $40 for a little metal fitting and $100 on a pump that costs $5 to manufacture. If that's what people want to do, go for it. Lots of people waste money on all kinds of hobbies and that's fine as long as you realize you really aren't going to get much pay-off for your investment.

Now, there's no doubt a custom loop will usually give better performance. They have higher flow rates for one. But the difference is not big enough for me to spend many hundreds or thousands of dollars on. Sorry, it's just not. Especially nowadays that CLC's have gotten so much better than they were 5 years ago.

And it's hysterical how the OP bashes glycol coolants when he sells them on his site. Not only that, he sells toxic Ethylene Glycol coolants and then claims they were certified as "safe" in an EPA lab. Note how the lab is EPA certified -- a clever use of words to trick you into believing the EPA itself has approved it as safe. They don't. They haven't. They never will. Ethylene Glycol is highly poisonous. 200mL can kill an adult human.

If you're going to run a custom loop, go buy some inhibited Propylene Glycol (PG) and some distilled water. That's all you need. PG is the safe alternative to Ethylene Glycol and is what is used in most commercial anti-freeze products today. EG was phased out decades ago (at least for consumer use). PG is safe to eat, drink or inhale. I am sitting here inhaling PG right now on my vape. PG has slightly lower thermal conductivity than EG, but it's not by much.

Inhibited PG can be had online for $25 a gallon. Search for Biodiesel stores (people who build their own biodiesel engines and run their own solar panels use inhibited PG as a coolant).

Lot of good info.

And again as ive said theres plenty of GPUs with AIOs that have run for years without issues, including a few evga ones and the r9 295x2 that not a lot of people buy waterblocks for anyways.

And for anyone whose done basic testing knows, theres really not much difference between AIO/CLC/Custom loop temps in term of temperatures, not up until you start getting into the 480mmx2 and so on type of custom loop.

A gpu is where you will drop crazy temps, but for a cpu loop only its not a huge difference.

P.S. I dont think eg was phased out years ago because when i worked couple years ago i could still get ford based coolant thta has eg in it.
    
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post #20 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandora's Box View Post

I dumped my H90 last month in favor of a coolermaster hyper 212 EVO. CPU runs at the same frequency, is quieter, and is running at the same temp as it was under the H90. Reason I replaced it was I was hearing gurgling noises from the H90, figured best to be proactive and replace it before it breaks and takes something out with it. I had the H90 for 3.5 years

My Corsair H105 has been making that kind of noise once every 2 hours since the day I installed it. Still running, so should be fine. I do agree for 120mm AIOs an air cooler is a way better option.
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