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AIOs Why they should only be considered a short term product. - Page 16

post #151 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by apw63 View Post

I have an H50 that's been running 247 on a mild OC. I purchased it when they were first introduced. That's like 7 or 8 years, it still runs like a champ

Back then the argument could be made that it was a new product on the market making watercooling easier for the layman.

I remember reading the first reviews in Maximum PC and knowing the little that I knew then, I was sure that I didn't want a custom loop because parts were not entirely simple to figure out 8 years ago. You had an abundance of incompatible fittings/parts. G3/8 and G1/4. Then you had Radiators that only came with Barbs etc etc etc. Things have come a long way since my dreams of water cooled perfection could be realized.

Then we had the Plasticizer issue gumming up the works and flaky plating issues, which I am sure didn't sit well with water cooling wannabes. I lucked out since only my MB block is Nickel but that flaking Nickel left me kinda worried since the block was manufactured by the company people were trying to burn to the ground over the issue.

But hey if it works who'm I to judge? I only bring up CLCs negatively in that I advise anyone on an old system to look to updating their CLC. Whether that be to a new CLC or a Custom Loop.

Custom loops are easy and have come down quite a bit in price unless you buy the high end kit stuff. thumb.gif

~Ceadder smil3dbd4e4c2e742.gif
 
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post #152 of 366
I just don't see the point with expandable systems now available that cost <30 dollars more.

Only argument that holds any water with me is the shoestring budget one. And I can sympathize I've been there. But I'd rather buy an air cooler that's going to perform in the same ballpark for even less money.

I think that's kind of the crux of the issue here.
    
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post #153 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadderman View Post

Back then the argument could be made that it was a new product on the market making watercooling easier for the layman.

I remember reading the first reviews in Maximum PC and knowing the little that I knew then, I was sure that I didn't want a custom loop because parts were not entirely simple to figure out 8 years ago. You had an abundance of incompatible fittings/parts. G3/8 and G1/4. Then you had Radiators that only came with Barbs etc etc etc. Things have come a long way since my dreams of water cooled perfection could be realized.

Then we had the Plasticizer issue gumming up the works and flaky plating issues, which I am sure didn't sit well with water cooling wannabes. I lucked out since only my MB block is Nickel but that flaking Nickel left me kinda worried since the block was manufactured by the company people were trying to burn to the ground over the issue.

But hey if it works who'm I to judge? I only bring up CLCs negatively in that I advise anyone on an old system to look to updating their CLC. Whether that be to a new CLC or a Custom Loop.

Custom loops are easy and have come down quite a bit in price unless you buy the high end kit stuff. thumb.gif

~Ceadder smil3dbd4e4c2e742.gif
Why even consider updating a CLC to another CLC when a AIOs like Switech and EK? AIOs having pumps that will flow 8+ times as much and quality copper radiators that with no fitting or coolant weights as much as an entire CLC are expandable and only costs about 20% more. Or go a step further and buy a kit with all components needed with only assembly and filling needed.

We can judge because our cumulative experience and knowledge has shown what you are saying about CLCs is true. tongue.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtom320 View Post

I just don't see the point with expandable systems now available that cost <30 dollars more.

Only argument that holds any water with me is the shoestring budget one. And I can sympathize I've been there. But I'd rather buy an air cooler that's going to perform in the same ballpark for even less money.

I think that's kind of the crux of the issue here.
Similar performance and lower noise levels too .. with the only part that will fail in our lifetimes being the fan. thumb.gif
Edited by doyll - 6/24/16 at 12:21am
post #154 of 366
Had custom and if you have the time and effort involved then great. Overall didn't like the extra time involved plus bleeding air in loop was a pain (maybe because of bay reservoir).

I purchased h100igtx, (ek predator was yet to be released and also double the price)also to test it out, so far verdict is mixed.

Next time I think will go back to scythe air cooler unless I use mitx case then maybe ek predator.
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post #155 of 366
I'm guessing this thread has been so thoroughly derailed that we'll never hear @Mayhem's responses about... you know, the topic of this thread.
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post #156 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by ciarlatano View Post


In terms of noise, obviously top tier air coolers are the quietest of the lot in most real life circumstances (the fact that the fans are inside rather than on the perimeter of the case, coupled with the lack of a pump makes this the case most of the time), followed by open loop and CLC being miles behind both. And, yes, you can change your CLCs fans......but performance is going to scale down along with the noise, simply because you are reducing noise by reducing airflow. Unfortunately, the current CLCs on the market are completely airflow reliant - why, you might ask....simple, it is far cheaper to slap on higher rpm fans than it is to start using copper (which has a U-Factor about twice that of aluminum....so they try to do more aluminum to make up for the lack of efficiency....which doesn't really work because it makes the rad's resistance ridiculously high....which also causes ridiculous amounts of noise) rads and a pump that moves enough liquid. Yup, gotta keep those profit margins up and give the customer the least they will possibly keep buying.

Using copper would jack the price up significantly. Yes, copper is a better heat conductor than aluminum but it's also expensive. Why do you think there are so many copper thieves out there? Instead of paying $100 for our CLC's we'd end up paying $150 or more.
Quote:
In terms of price, again air offers by far the best bang for the buck. That one isn't even close.

The air coolers that compete with CLC's are almost at the same price as the CLC's. Not to mention they are ugly giant behemoth's hanging from your CPU. If you want the best performance you need to buy the versions with 2 or 3 fans. The most famous of these coolers is the Noctua NH-D15. The single fan version is $85 right now while the 2 fan version is $90. Most 240 mm CLC's are at that same price point with the 280 mm radiator versions being slightly higher ($100-$150 depending on the brand. Corsair's flagship 280mm cooler is at about $110 right now).
Quote:
Then you look at CLC vs the new crop of open loop that are suddenly very competitively priced. A $20 difference in MSRP between a Swiftech and an Asetek 240mm.

Read the reviews about the Swiftechs. They are horrible on Newegg. Leaking, tons of RMA's, ugly LED lights. Not to mention they are short on supply (Newegg doesn't have any in stock), so it's hard to find one even if you wanted to buy one. Here's the first review on Newegg about the 240x:
Quote:
Poor QC - Waited for this H240 X2 to be in stock, finally got one and was very excited to open it up when it arrived. Came in a nice box... a nice wet box. Thing was leaking inside the box when it arrived.

Out of the 8 reviews on Newegg about the 240x, 3 of them are 5 star, with the rest being 1 or 2 stars. One guy said his box came wet. The next guy said it leaked all over his video card. The next guy said it worked fine for 2 weeks then the pump died. Etc..

Sure you can find similar reviews about Asetek coolers, but they are far more rare in comparison. I almost went with a Swiftech until I read the reviews. Instead, I went with Corsair/Asetek because 1) They've been around a long time, 2) Make a ton of these (unlike Swiftech) and 3) are very good with RMA's if something does go wrong.
Quote:
Twenty dollars. $30 to the XSPC kits. Not $500, not $100, not even $50. Twenty dollars. That's about $1 per dB difference between the two at like performance levels. Think about that for a second. Plus the Swiftech has more overall cooling capability. And is expandable. And can be customized to look any way you want it.

And also leaks, has ugly LED's that can't be turned off, and is out of stock everywhere all the time.
Quote:
So, yes, I think that anyone choosing a far louder cooler, that does not cool as well, has far more limited capabilities, and is essentially disposable is daft (which means "silly" or "foolish", not "idiot", as intelligent people often make erroneous decisions due to having bad information to base the decision on).

The loudness is merely a function of the fans. It is simple to change fans out. On my system, my fans don't kick in until I hit 60°C which is almost never unless I run synthetic stress tests or benchmarks. My unit is almost completely silent in everyday use even with the stock fans (which are loud at max RPM).
Quote:
Do CLCs have a place? Yes, they do. But that is a subject for a discussion of aesthetics, not really of cooling.

You could say the same about custom loops. Let's face it, their cooling isn't that much better than CLC's or top end air coolers. Better, yes. $500 to $1000 better? Hell no. It's funny you mention CLC's being poor for price to performance, but custom loops are the KING of being nowhere near worth their cost in terms of performance. CLC's are a steal in comparison. Of course, I suspect most people know this but go with custom loops for the DIY/tinkering/enthusiast factor. And that's OK. Nothing wrong with that. I am talking about pure performance, though.

Not to mention custom loops are vastly overpriced compared to the cost to manufacture the parts. You can go to Chinese websites and buy the same stuff for 1/4th the price. $20 for water blocks that are identical to EK's $100 blocks. Etc. All of the big companies make their stuff in China (there is very little not made in China today) and then mark it up 3 or 4 fold. If they are not making it in China, then they're doing it wrong. If it's made in Hungary or Germany or Slovenia or something, then all you're doing is paying a premium for a machine shop in Europe somewhere to machine some copper when the Chinese will do the job for much less (you can't compete with China -- they work for almost nothing). I don't want to get into a "China" debate here, but am only pointing out that it shows that the mark-up on this stuff is ridiculous.
Edited by thiussat - 6/24/16 at 11:20am
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post #157 of 366
Oh, wow - you seem to be good on the science arguments but it's about to get rough...

jerry.gif
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post #158 of 366
I tried not to comment but this is a pretty lame duck argument.

I will just leave this here as an educational tool... Initial onset of ethylene glycol degradation is 240°C

Table 2: Physical Properties of Ethylene Glycol
Scientific Common
Autoignition Temperature 427°C 801°F
Critical Pressure 8,200 kPa 61,505 mm Hg
Critical Specific Volume 0.191 L/gmol 3.06 ft3
/lbmol
Critical Temperature 446.85°C 836.33°F
Dielectric Constant at 25°C 37.7 37.7
Electrical Conductivity at 20°C 1.07 x 10-6 mhos/cm 1.07 micromhos/cm
Evaporation Rate (Butyl Acetate = 1) 0.01 0.01
Flash Point, Closed Cup
(Pensky-Martens Closed Cup ASTM D93) 126.7°C 260°F
Flash Point, Open Cup
(Cleveland Open Cup ASTM D92) 137.8°C 280°F
Heat of Combustion at 25°C -1,053 kJ/gmol -7,297 Btu/lb
Heat of Formation at 25°C -460 kJ/gmol -3,188 Btu/lb
Heat of Fusion 9.96 kJ/gmol 69 Btu/lb
Heat of Vaporization at 1 atm 53.2 kJ/gmol 369 Btu/lb
Molecular Weight 62.07 g/mol 62.07 g/mol
Normal Boiling Point 197.1°C 386.8°F
BP/ P (750 to 770 mm Hg) 0.337°C/kPa 0.045°C/mm Hg
Normal Freezing Point -13°C 8.6°F
Onset of Initial Decomposition 240°C 464°F
Refractive Index, nD, at 25°C 1.4306 1.4306
Solubility in Water at 20°C 100 wt% 100 wt%
Solubility of Water in Ethylene Glycol at 20°C 100 wt% 100 wt%
Specific Gravity (20/20°C) 1.1153 1.1153
Specific Gravity/ T(10 to 40°C) 0.00070 per °C 0.00039 per °F
Surface Tension at 25°C 48.0 mN/m 48.0 dynes/cm
Vapor Density (air = 1) 2.1 2.1
Vapor Pressure at 20°C 0.0075 kPa 0.06 mm Hg

Good luck with the rest of your sales pitch sir
post #159 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by thiussat View Post

Using copper would jack the price up significantly. Yes, copper is a better heat conductor than aluminum but it's also expensive. Why do you think there are so many copper thieves out there? Instead of paying $100 for our CLC's we'd end up paying $150 or more.
The air coolers that compete with CLC's are almost at the same price as the CLC's. Not to mention they are ugly giant behemoth's hanging from your CPU. If you want the best performance you need to buy the versions with 2 or 3 fans. The most famous of these coolers is the Noctua NH-D15. The single fan version is $85 right now while the 2 fan version is $90. Most 240 mm CLC's are at that same price point with the 280 mm radiator versions being slightly higher ($100-$150 depending on the brand. Corsair's flagship 280mm cooler is at about $110 right now).
Read the reviews about the Swiftechs. They are horrible on Newegg. Leaking, tons of RMA's, ugly LED lights. Not to mention they are short on supply (Newegg doesn't have any in stock), so it's hard to find one even if you wanted to buy one. Here's the first review on Newegg about the 240x:


Out of the 8 reviews on Newegg about the 240x, 3 of them are 5 star, with the rest being 1 or 2 stars. One guy said his box came wet. The next guy said it leaked all over his video card. The next guy said it worked fine for 2 weeks then the pump died. Etc..

Sure you can find similar reviews about Asetek coolers, but they are far more rare in comparison. I almost went with a Swiftech until I read the reviews. Instead, I went with Corsair/Asetek because 1) They've been around a long time, 2) Make a ton of these (unlike Swiftech) and 3) are very good with RMA's if something does go wrong.
And also leaks, has ugly LED's that can't be turned off, and is out of stock everywhere all the time.
The loudness is merely a function of the fans. It is simple to change fans out. On my system, my fans don't kick in until I hit 60°C which is almost never unless I run synthetic stress tests or benchmarks. My unit is almost completely silent in everyday use even with the stock fans (which are loud at max RPM).
You could say the same about custom loops. Let's face it, their cooling isn't that much better than CLC's or top end air coolers. Better, yes. $500 to $1000 better? Hell no. It's funny you mention CLC's being poor for price to performance, but custom loops are the KING of being nowhere near worth their cost in terms of performance. CLC's are a steal in comparison. Of course, I suspect most people know this but go with custom loops for the DIY/tinkering/enthusiast factor. And that's OK. Nothing wrong with that. I am talking about pure performance, though.

Not to mention custom loops are vastly overpriced compared to the cost to manufacture the parts. You can go to Chinese websites and buy the same stuff for 1/4th the price. $20 for water blocks that are identical to EK's $100 blocks. Etc. All of the big companies make their stuff in China (there is very little not made in China today) and then mark it up 3 or 4 fold. If they are not making it in China, then they're doing it wrong. If it's made in Hungary or Germany or Slovenia or something, then all you're doing is paying a premium for a machine shop in Europe somewhere to machine some copper when the Chinese will do the job for much less (you can't compete with China -- they work for almost nothing). I don't want to get into a "China" debate here, but am only pointing out that it shows that the mark-up on this stuff is ridiculous.
Blah, blah, blah.
Honestly you are not even being close to rational with your arguments, not to mention how many of your arguments have been repeatedly answered here already.

But by all means believe what newbies with no knowledge or experience with water cooling post on newegg instead of posts here by experienced and knowledgeable people.
post #160 of 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by thiussat View Post

Using copper would jack the price up significantly. Yes, copper is a better heat conductor than aluminum but it's also expensive. Why do you think there are so many copper thieves out there? Instead of paying $100 for our CLC's we'd end up paying $150 or more.
The air coolers that compete with CLC's are almost at the same price as the CLC's. Not to mention they are ugly giant behemoth's hanging from your CPU. If you want the best performance you need to buy the versions with 2 or 3 fans. The most famous of these coolers is the Noctua NH-D15. The single fan version is $85 right now while the 2 fan version is $90. Most 240 mm CLC's are at that same price point with the 280 mm radiator versions being slightly higher ($100-$150 depending on the brand. Corsair's flagship 280mm cooler is at about $110 right now).
Read the reviews about the Swiftechs. They are horrible on Newegg. Leaking, tons of RMA's, ugly LED lights. Not to mention they are short on supply (Newegg doesn't have any in stock), so it's hard to find one even if you wanted to buy one. Here's the first review on Newegg about the 240x:


Out of the 8 reviews on Newegg about the 240x, 3 of them are 5 star, with the rest being 1 or 2 stars. One guy said his box came wet. The next guy said it leaked all over his video card. The next guy said it worked fine for 2 weeks then the pump died. Etc..

Sure you can find similar reviews about Asetek coolers, but they are far more rare in comparison. I almost went with a Swiftech until I read the reviews. Instead, I went with Corsair/Asetek because 1) They've been around a long time, 2) Make a ton of these (unlike Swiftech) and 3) are very good with RMA's if something does go wrong.
And also leaks, has ugly LED's that can't be turned off, and is out of stock everywhere all the time.
The loudness is merely a function of the fans. It is simple to change fans out. On my system, my fans don't kick in until I hit 60°C which is almost never unless I run synthetic stress tests or benchmarks. My unit is almost completely silent in everyday use even with the stock fans (which are loud at max RPM).
You could say the same about custom loops. Let's face it, their cooling isn't that much better than CLC's or top end air coolers. Better, yes. $500 to $1000 better? Hell no. It's funny you mention CLC's being poor for price to performance, but custom loops are the KING of being nowhere near worth their cost in terms of performance. CLC's are a steal in comparison. Of course, I suspect most people know this but go with custom loops for the DIY/tinkering/enthusiast factor. And that's OK. Nothing wrong with that. I am talking about pure performance, though.

Not to mention custom loops are vastly overpriced compared to the cost to manufacture the parts. You can go to Chinese websites and buy the same stuff for 1/4th the price. $20 for water blocks that are identical to EK's $100 blocks. Etc. All of the big companies make their stuff in China (there is very little not made in China today) and then mark it up 3 or 4 fold. If they are not making it in China, then they're doing it wrong. If it's made in Hungary or Germany or Slovenia or something, then all you're doing is paying a premium for a machine shop in Europe somewhere to machine some copper when the Chinese will do the job for much less (you can't compete with China -- they work for almost nothing). I don't want to get into a "China" debate here, but am only pointing out that it shows that the mark-up on this stuff is ridiculous.

The amount of false information here is pretty astonishing.

-A copper radiator is definitely possible for less than said asetek/corsair etc junk even, proof: Fractal Design Kelvin S24.

-Quality based on Newegg reviews... Have you ever read some of those reviews? The incompetence of some of those people is incomprehensible. Also people with a defective unit, be it because it was actually defective or because a fault of their own are much more likely to write a review, and based on so little reviews to boot is highly inaccurate.

-The cheap alu rads on asetek etc units require high fan speeds because of their extremely high fin density(compensating for fact they're alu). So no, its not simply a matter of changing out fans. And the fact they come with less than great fans on top of that problem surely isn't helping your defense of CLC's.

-Since when do CPU only custom loops cost $500-1000? wth.gif
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