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[HNN/Softpedia] New Intel CPUs Have NSA Exploitable Secret Hidden Backdoor - Page 7

post #61 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by mothergoose729 View Post

So what I don't understand is, if this is a TCP/ICP server on the chip, how exactly do packets get routed to this part of the processor? The Ethernet jack or wifi card on your motherboard presumably doesn't know about the chip, right? The OS can see all traffic coming in and out of the socket, even if the chip operates underneath the level of the OS. You can't keep networking resources like that hidden, because the packet headers must be inspected every time they reach the machine. I don't understand how exactly these packets get past a PC firewall. I also don't understand how the packets could go to your basic router and get forwarded to other parts of the world, if a port is not open on your router.

If this is true, it is utterly terrifying. Not quite sure how it works though... the article is scant on real details.


This goes way above my head and the info divulged is very few, but here are some points. 1) Most software firewalls don't do serious packet analysis. Maybe business level do. In the old firewalls, there was a setting called "statefull packet analysis" (or better SPI - Stateful packet inspection). This had vanished from all new firewalls that are mostly interested in TCP/UDP/ICMP protocol, port (many not even that), application. Even if we assume that they still do stateful inspection, it is likely that the packets will be deemed as legitimate, because they originate from your own IP, through your own ethernet port. Much like your router, will gladly allow malware you got to connect out. Have you ever heard of a router stopping an outbound malware connection? I haven't... My routers certainly don't!
2) The PC firewall checks for processes phoning out (assuming you don't have the Windows firewall, which doesn't check for anything and lets everything out). If this appears as part of svchost.exe (the generic name for Windows services), it will be let out by any firewall, because if you block svchost.exe outbound, you can't connect to the internet. BUT, there is also the possiblity that simply the firewall can't see it at all, because the firewall operates to a higher level and it's not certain that the filtering driver of the firewall can catch this. 3) Your router will allow all common ports outbound by default. When was the last time that you had to go to your router to open port 80 outbound? Never? I thought so. Because port 80 is common HTTP protocol. When was the last time you had to open port 443 on your router? Never? I thought so, because it's HTTPS protocol and so on. The router is useful to close ports incoming, not so ougoing. I don't know your routers, but the routers i 've used, needed intervention to open ports for incoming connections, not outgoing.

Now, the most interesting question, would be "how could someone connect in?" (because out, seems much easier). Well, i suspect that if this thing is real and NSA has its say, that it also knows how to exploit routers.

For the history, as examples that i know. Comodo firewall has known and admitted in their forum, problems with ipv6 filtering. So, you have a firewall, but as far as ipv6 goes, not so much. Also, by default, it doesn't do SPI. Zone alarm, by default, has unchecked the setting about blocking "anomalous protocols or packets" or something like that. The general firewall software business has gone down the drain ever since MS introduced her 2 way capable but really 1 way blocking firewall in Win7. The fact that people buy routers also led to software firewall vendors to pretty much not care much anymore. They are more about application control now, rather than the real firewall job. When was the last time you saw a firewall request, asking port and protocol? Protocol maybe. The port has become a sacrifice at the altar of "average Joe".
Edited by Undervolter - 6/20/16 at 8:42am
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post #62 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undervolter View Post

This goes way above my head and the info divulged is very few, but here are some points. 1) Most software firewalls don't do serious packet analysis. Maybe business level do. In the old firewalls, there was a setting called "statefull packet analysis" (or better SPI - Stateful packet inspection). This had vanished from all new firewalls that are mostly interested in TCP/UDP/ICMP protocol, port (many not even that), application. Even if we assume that they still do stateful inspection, it is likely that the packets will be deemed as legitimate, because they originate from your own IP, through your own ethernet port. Much like your router, will gladly allow malware you got to connect out. Have you ever heard of a router stopping an outbound malware connection? I haven't... My routers certainly don't!
2) The PC firewall checks for processes phoning out (assuming you don't have the Windows firewall, which doesn't check for anything and lets everything out). If this appears as part of svchost.exe (the generic name for Windows services), it will be let out by any firewall, because if you block svchost.exe outbound, you can't connect to the internet. BUT, there is also the possiblity that simply the firewall can't see it at all, because the firewall operates to a higher level and it's not certain that the filtering driver of the firewall can catch this. 3) Your router will allow all common ports outbound by default. When was the last time that you had to go to your router to open port 80 outbound? Never? I thought so. Because port 80 is common HTTP protocol. When was the last time you had to open port 443 on your router? Never? I thought so, because it's HTTPS protocol and so on. The router is useful to close ports incoming, not so ougoing. I don't know your routers, but the routers i 've used, needed intervention to open ports for incoming connections, not outgoing.

Now, the most interesting question, would be "how could someone connect in?" (because out, seems much easier). Well, i suspect that if this thing is real and NSA has its say, that it also knows how to exploit routers.

So if I'm understanding this correctly: hardware and software firewalls would see this as legitimate traffic?
post #63 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undervolter View Post

This goes way above my head and the info divulged is very few, but here are some points. 1) Most software firewalls don't do serious packet analysis. Maybe business level do. In the old firewalls, there was a setting called "statefull packet analysis" (or better SPI - Stateful packet inspection). This had vanished from all new firewalls that are mostly interested in TCP/UDP/ICMP protocol, port (many not even that), application. Even if we assume that they still do stateful inspection, it is likely that the packets will be deemed as legitimate, because they originate from your own IP, through your own ethernet port. Much like your router, will gladly allow malware you got to connect out. Have you ever heard of a router stopping an outbound malware connection? I haven't... My routers certainly don't!
2) The PC firewall checks for processes phoning out (assuming you don't have the Windows firewall, which doesn't check for anything and lets everything out). If this appears as part of svchost.exe (the generic name for Windows services), it will be let out by any firewall, because if you block svchost.exe outbound, you can't connect to the internet. BUT, there is also the possiblity that simply the firewall can't see it at all, because the firewall operates to a higher level and it's not certain that the filtering driver of the firewall can catch this. 3) Your router will allow all common ports outbound by default. When was the last time that you had to go to your router to open port 80 outbound? Never? I thought so. Because port 80 is common HTTP protocol. When was the last time you had to open port 443 on your router? Never? I thought so, because it's HTTPS protocol and so on. The router is useful to close ports incoming, not so ougoing. I don't know your routers, but the routers i 've used, needed intervention to open ports for incoming connections, not outgoing.

Now, the most interesting question, would be "how could someone connect in?" (because out, seems much easier). Well, i suspect that if this thing is real and NSA has its say, that it also knows how to exploit routers.

For the history, as examples that i know. Comodo firewall has known and admitted in their forum, problems with ipv6 filtering. So, you have a firewall, but as far as ipv6 goes, not so much. Also, by default, it doesn't do SPI. Zone alarm, by default, has unchecked the setting about blocking "anomalous protocols or packets" or something like that. The general firewall software business has gone down the drain ever since MS introduced her 2 way capable but really 1 way blocking firewall in Win7. The fact that people buy routers also led to software firewall vendors to pretty much not care much anymore. They are more about application control now, rather than the real firewall job. When was the last time you saw a firewall request, asking port and protocol? Protocol maybe. The port has become a sacrifice at the altar of "average Joe".

Every packet going in our out of your network must be be inspected, if for no other reason than to know where to send it next. This is a fundamental component of packet routing. You cannot send secret packets on a network.

Packets sent out on 80 and 443 are entirely visible to your router and to your firewall. Its seems entirely unlikely that if the NSA, or anyone for that matter, was exploiting PXE that it would go undetected for any length of time. If you intercept one of those packets the source address is right in the header. Immediately the jig is up.

The original post you linked makes sense; someone could root into a computer using PXE if the could bypass its firmware and encryption. The idea that the NSA is already doing it on a massive scale makes no sense.
post #64 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by mothergoose729 View Post

Thank you. This, for so many more reasons, makes far more sense than the OP.

The short answer is it is not an NSA backdoor, it is a PXE controller. There are still scary implications behind i, but less big brother more things-that-keep-security-geeks-up-at-night kind of scary.

Well, theoretically speaking, it could be both. I don't know or follow this Damien guy or whatever his name was. I just googled for 1 second and this is what came up and thought to post. I have no idea if he has made any other articles or some other of the team that are trying to crack this have. Softpedia is a website that i like, so i don't think that they just invented everything. They probably merged this with opinion of someone else, but who, i don't know.

But surely, it would be a very nice backdoor, in all honestly. But certainly from that article, there is no proof saying it's NSA's backdoor. If i were NSA, i 'd do covertly. I would say "this is NSA chip, you may as well put my name on it". I d' do it like MS does it. MS doesn't say "upgrade to 10 damn you, i want to datamine you, this is my new business model". It says "upgrade to 10, so you can get directX 12 and for free". The antivirus vendor doesn't say "yes, our software is designed to rootkit you personally". They say "we can't discolse if we can deliver special updates just for you".

I am not particularly fond of conspiracies, but there is one thing i don't understand about such "usefulness" as this chip. Why make it invisible to Windows? What function can't it make transparently, so it needs to make it invisibly? That's the big question.
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post #65 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by mothergoose729 View Post

Every packet going in our out of your network must be be inspected, if for no other reason than to know where to send it next. This is a fundamental component of packet routing. You cannot send secret packets on a network.

Packets sent out on 80 and 443 are entirely visible to your router and to your firewall. Its seems entirely unlikely that if the NSA, or anyone for that matter, was exploiting PXE that it would go undetected for any length of time. If you intercept one of those packets the source address is right in the header. Immediately the jig is up.

The original post you linked makes sense; someone could root into a computer using PXE if the could bypass its firmware and encryption. The idea that the NSA is already doing it on a massive scale makes no sense.

thank you sir for some logic

this would have to be a massive conspiracy and an undertaking of proportions i dont see being financially and logically feasible as the man power, funds, etc. would be astounding and would require cooperation of every major entity in the world.
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post #66 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Echoa View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mothergoose729 View Post

Every packet going in our out of your network must be be inspected, if for no other reason than to know where to send it next. This is a fundamental component of packet routing. You cannot send secret packets on a network.

Packets sent out on 80 and 443 are entirely visible to your router and to your firewall. Its seems entirely unlikely that if the NSA, or anyone for that matter, was exploiting PXE that it would go undetected for any length of time. If you intercept one of those packets the source address is right in the header. Immediately the jig is up.

The original post you linked makes sense; someone could root into a computer using PXE if the could bypass its firmware and encryption. The idea that the NSA is already doing it on a massive scale makes no sense.

thank you sir for some logic

this would have to be a massive conspiracy and an undertaking of proportions i dont see being financially and logically feasible as the man power, funds, etc. would be astounding and would require cooperation of every major entity in the world.

No it wouldn't. Thanks to psychologists, like my brother, they have algorithms that can map society. The more information they have the easier it is for them to map it.

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post #67 of 139
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Originally Posted by Liranan View Post

No it wouldn't. Thanks to psychologists, like my brother, they have algorithms that can map society. The more information they have the easier it is for them to map it.

youre saying the NSA can track everything without being seen without the cooperation of hardware, software, etc. manufacturers? Theyre not wizards, i dont deny they collect info, but to the level some people think they go is slightly ridiculous. Once data leaves your home its free game, and Im sure they peak plenty, but they arent busting down your proverbial digital door.
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post #68 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Echoa View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liranan View Post

No it wouldn't. Thanks to psychologists, like my brother, they have algorithms that can map society. The more information they have the easier it is for them to map it.

youre saying the NSA can track everything without being seen without the cooperation of hardware, software, etc. manufacturers? Theyre not wizards, i dont deny they collect info, but to the level some people think they go is slightly ridiculous

Obviously they have that cooperation.

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post #69 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liranan View Post

Obviously they have that cooperation.

we'll just agree to disagree and ill respect your tin foil hat sir and wash my hands of this
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I7 920xm Asus g73jh Radeon HD 6990m 8gb Hynix DDR3 1333 
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Xeon e5649 HP z400 FirePro v4800 12gb Gkill Ripjaw 
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post #70 of 139
Edit: bad joke removed.
Edited by TUFinside - 6/20/16 at 9:21am
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