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[eurogamer] Mass Effect 3 will be irrelevant for Andromeda - Page 3

post #21 of 64
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Originally Posted by qosu View Post
 
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Originally Posted by Prophet4NO1 View Post

I find it strange that people are still so upset by the ending of ME3. The rest of the game was pretty darn good. Sure, the ending sucked, so? It just seems silly to me to be so bent out of shape over it. Especially now after so much time has passed.

It's a bit disingenuous to say the only thing wrong with Mass Effect 3 was the ending, it suffered from signicantly downgrades in terms of writing and general narrative at the hand of Mac Walters after Drew Karpyshyn was sent to work on Tor-tanic. Not to mention Bioware's notorious inability to accept anything resembling criticism/feedback from it's own forum goers, ending in mass banning of anyone who stepped out of line. Quite a fiasco if you were there to witness it. More could easily be said if I wanted to bother mentioning glaring plot-holes/continuity issues, but I would have to brush up on the lore again after putting it out of my mind.

And then there's the words of Casey Hudson that riled people up.

Which is why I didn't buy the game. Why waste money on a game when the studio gives their customers the middle finger? I voted with my wallet. I loved ME 1 and 2, the combat in 2 was far more refined than 1 but there is no way I will waste money on 3.

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post #22 of 64
Aw, I was hoping for some Shepard appearances. In some form or another.
post #23 of 64
Ugh... Once again, people taking a dump on ME3... Time to post my rant again...

As always... ME3 is receiving too much hatred, and ME2 is receiving too much praise. For tl;dr, look at the end of this post. And, huge spoilers ahead.


Let's start with ME1 vs ME2.

ME1 had something ME2 didn't have.. Fights could happen anywhere. For example, take the Citadel, particularly Chora's Den. Just a club right? Well, fights happened there.. You were ambushed on your way there.. Take Feros.. Just a colony right? Well, fights happened there as well. Point is, the levels supported both combat and exploration at the same time. In ME2, these things were pretty much always completely separate, and the combat levels were sealed off from exploring once you completed a mission, which imo sucked. The missions themselves in ME2 might've been more interesting, but the setup of missions in ME1 felt like a part of the world, and that also made them arguably more interesting than ME2 missions because of the additional immersion and engagement. You could visit a peaceful place once and have that same place be a bullet fest moments later. That stuff just doesn't happen in ME2.

Yeah the stable framerate and improved combat was most welcome in ME2. It was necessary actually. Releasing the second game just as buggy and clunky would've been a huge failure. I just felt a little disappointed that it came at the expense of other things, especially because they were so small and added so much to the immersion.

I remember the first time I played ME2, and being completely annoyed by the plague zone on Omega after recruiting Mordin, and finding out I couldn't go back in there again to explore how the place changed after clearing the plague.. I mean, there's a plague where no one is allowed, and you can go in. The plague is cleared and it's safe, suddenly the place is off-limits to you? What kind of nonsense is that? And that's where I started feeling the restraints of the game compared to ME1, and having all places feel small. Not only the Citadel, but also Omega, Illium and Tuchanka. Sure, they were big if you take the combat levels into account, but very small on the exploration side, especially since a lot of the levels in ME1 that you couldn't visit again, had you driving around in the Mako. Think about finding Liara, or the Virmire mission etc. It still had an exploration taste to it, even if it was a linear combat mission in essence. It felt big and immersive. That's one of the reasons I liked the Overlord DLC in ME2, because it was slightly closer to ME1 in that regard.. But ME2 felt like a really linear and restraining game in general. And that's where I agree with a lot of people when they say that it feels like a TPS rather than an RPG. It still remains an RPG though despite what people say.. TPS don't put emphasis on dialogue while all the ME games still do.

The first time I played, and I recruited Mordin, and had to land again to go get Archangel, that simply annoyed me. It didn't feel like a continuity, but as a bunch of pieces thrown together that just happen to work as a whole. That's how I felt the whole time playing game actually, while ME1 felt like a continuous game.. Let's just say that ME1 felt like a very delicious food, while ME2 felt like tasting each ingredient of that food separately.

I also had no problem with the elevators in ME1.. Your characters would interact with each other in there and you'd hear galaxy news on the radio and stuff. You only had to actually use each elevator once (except the one to the Normandy if I remember correctly) because if you didn't like them you could quick travel using those car/cab things and you'd get a short loading screen instead. Don't remember their name right now. So I think the elevator hate was blown out of proportion. I also loved the feeling that you could get lost on the Citadel when you started out in ME1. It made it feel big. ME2 nor ME3 have that.

Yes, fighting Cerberus in ME1 was repetitive, and that was less repetitive in ME2. The sidemissions in ME2 are arguably better than ME1, but in ME1 there's a clear distinction between side missions and the core story. In ME2 those lines are pretty blurry. I don't know which approach is better, although the core story of ME1 is better.

You know, I wonder why they didn't just let us pilot one of those drop shuttles in ME2. It seems like a perfect vehicle for exploration. Yeah. It wouldn't be too hard to simply mount some simple guns on the thing.. Would make more sense than finding this full working Hammerhead vehicle on a deserted planet in the middle of a freaking volcanic eruption... I mean, the drop shuttles are known to be durable.. So.. Instead of having place for 14 people, let it have 4 people, mount some guns and a scanner on it if you wish, and boom, you have a full working exploration vehicle. It could've even been another side-mission or whatever.. Upgrading it just like you were upgrading the Normandy. No need for this weird Hammerhead thing. But meh.. The Hammerhead worked too, except in ME3 we get to learn that it was lost.

I loved the Mako. For some reason, when people think of the Mako they only think of the barren planets, but they forget that it also played a key role in the exploration of the level design on core planets and main story of the first game. The main missions on Feros, Virmire, Ilos, Therum all used the Mako and did a brilliant job too. The missions would be a lot more dull without it.



On another note... The storyline in ME2 sucks.. Let's see, in the first game:

- Humans are newbies and the council and races do not trust them
- You were trying to join the council to help the alliance and humans get a higher status within the other races
- You discovered that a spectre has gone rogue
- You tried to convince the council, but they didn't listen
- You needed to get proof to show them
- You got it, and they told you to go after him
- You needed to find where he was
- You needed to find out why he was working with the Geth
- You needed to find out where he got that huge space ship
- Then you found out the Geth nor Saren were the real issue, but a reaper was
- You found out not all the beliefs about Protheans building everything were true
- You tried to warn the council about the reapers, but again they didn't listen
- You needed to break the rules to stop the reaper
- You get ready to keep fighting the reapers that are still to come

That was the ME1 story in a nutshell. Note that I left a lot of the stuff out, like Noveria mission etc.. The story goes a lot deeper than that, but, that's the main story. What's the main ME2 story?

- You died by an attack from some unknown vessel
- Cerberus brought you back because human colonies are disappearing
- You need to find out why
- You find out the collectors are taking them with the same vessel that killed you
- You need to find out why
- You find out the collectors are actually genetically re-engineered protheans by the reapers
- You find out they are creating a human reaper
- Kill the human reaper
- You get ready to keep fighting the reapers that are still to come


We didn't learn anything significant about the reapers in the whole second game, nor did we gain anything significant (maybe the new Normandy O.o), while that's where the first one left off. We were supposed to be preparing for the next coming invasion, gathering resources and information about the reapers to protect ourselves.

Instead, the council is turning you away again, you barely have contact with the alliance, and you're out there working for an organization with a bad reputation for no apparent reason. And even worse, the illusive man simply tells you no one does anything about it. You should've at least been able to go and talk to them multiple times, finding evidence etc, and then go back to the illusive man when they still don't listen... That would have drastically improved the story.

At the end of the game, you apparently got some info on Harbinger, but, it was never addressed HOW you got that information, nor what information it is. That really ruins the story and immersion compared to the first game.. They should've had some kind of better way to tell how you got it..


How people are arguing that this is somehow the best plot is beyond me. It's definitely the worst of the three. I left the sidestories out. The main story is still collectors vs humans through the whole game, and there was never a plot twist. The first game had many more important stuff going on. When you thought you knew your enemy, it turned out to be someone else. At the beginning you think, oh it's the geth, then you think, oh, it's saren and the geth, and then you think, wait, it's actually Sovereign. The geth and saren are just pawns.
In the 2nd game, the collectors are your enemies the whole time, and yet, they fail to be scary. In the end, you find out it's the reapers again (no surprise there), but, aside from the last boss battle and final dark space scene, there was no other real threat than the collectors. Some issues of your team mates.. But, you gotta admit, if they couldn't die, you probably wouldn't go through all the trouble of making all of them loyal... Well, maybe you would, but, you gotta understand, that they are not really a part of the main story, but side-stories. If they die, they don't impact ME2 itself, but, ME3 instead.. So it makes the story of ME2 itself weaker..

Don't get me wrong. Mass Effect 2 added a lot of details and expanded the knowledge about the whole universe further, but, the main plot itself is the one that simply lacks. The game has so many set-ups for the 3rd game, but at the same time they kind of forgot the core story a little bit. Basically, you spend most of your time with your team mates, solving their problems. Basically "side-issues" compared to the real threat.. And then we have the ignored dark energy stuff of ME3, but whatever.

In ME1 a lot of things had more importance. The story was unpredictable and everything happened for a reason. As an example, your accident with the prothean beacon at the beginning of the game is what gave you the visions, which triggered your interest to find out what they mean, is what made the council doubtful of you because they saw them as delusional dreams, it was the reason to get cypher to understand the vision better, which allowed you to understand the messages on Ilos left by the protheans etc. The beginning is connected to the end in all ways.

In ME2, you never really use the cypher, and lots of things seem backwards. It's like they didn't really know how to continue the story.. So they thought of improvements to the mechanics instead, and then tacked the story on there later. ME2 story can be completely ignored if you look at it. At the end of ME2, the collectors are destroyed (not to mention ME2 didn't use the cypher at all), so no more relevance to them in the next installment, and whether or not you keep the base, cerberus will come after you in ME3, the reapers are still coming. You could literally skip ME2 and start with ME3, and the only thing you'd actually miss is the new characters, and a few details that could be easily implemented in the codex or in a single mission in ME3. It's the same reason people were saying that the Arrival DLC undermines the whole ME2 game story-wise.. Arrival could've also been used at the end of ME1 and would've worked perfectly.

Case and point, ME2 should have gone beyond "the reapers are coming" since ME1 already did that. Don't get me wrong.. ME2 is still one of my fav games this gen, but, ME1 is higher on my list because of the story.. I'm not trying to hate on ME2, it's just my opinion. I do think it's the worst of the three. ME3 has a superior banter system for example, plus deeper combat and so on.. I'll just list everything below instead of making this a bigger wall of text on how ME2 is inferior to ME3.


Overall...

- ME1 had barren planets which were tedious to explore, shooting mechanics were crap, cover mechanics were crap, all classes played almost the same, had a bunch of time-wasting elevator rides, terrible performance and pop-in issues, tedious inventory and skill tree system, weapons overheating bug, getting stuck in environments, annoying mini-games..
- ME2 had almost no RPG mechanics whatsoever, main story sucked compared to ME1, was mainly a bunch of side quests, planet scanning was a drag (imo worse than mako), barely any exploration because of way too small locations (Citadel, Omega and so on), awful loading times, repetitive mini games, predictable fighting environments, being stuck in environments, apathetic characters (barely interacted with each other), lack of weapons and armor.
- ME3 has inferior journal, less exploration than ME1, confusing ending, glitches like teleporting characters, lip-sync issues, ME1 import issues, too much disc swapping (X360 only), too many shallow side quests, slightly less choice during conversations.

On the flipside..

- ME1 had the best overall story, the most exploration, the deepest RPG elements and conversations, the most immersion.
- ME2 had improved shooting mechanics, better sidequests, better DLC support, better performance, better animations in conversations, better graphics, better action, better and more character support, each class was really unique.
- ME3 had improved cover-based mechanics over ME2, more verticality in gameplay, more cinematic moments, more variety in enemies, more emotional peaks and valleys, slightly deeper RPG elements than ME2 (weapon mods, skill trees etc), bigger Citadel, best interaction between characters, more variety in weapons..


I apologize if I forgot anything on any of the games. But point is....

Reading what people in general are saying and comparing it to the pros and cons of all three, it doesn't seem that people hate ME3 because it's actually worse. It's because they disliked the ending that they're nitpicking about everything in ME3, even if it's superior than in the prior ones in many (if not most) ways. The issues of the other two listed above are not somehow irrelevant. You can easily love ME3 for what it is and simply forget about the ending for a second, but most people have chosen otherwise. I don't really get the hate for ME3 specifically while the other ones also had huge flaws, if not bigger flaws... But whatever.


TL;DR
All three games have problems. ME2 is overrated, ME3 is underrated.
What I want from the next ME is the combination of the best things from all three... That would be;

From ME1:
- Sense of scale
- Exploration
- Immersion
- Story
- Dialogue options

From ME2:
- Ending
- Characters
- Side quests

From ME3:
- Emotional impact
- Character class gameplay variety (the multiplayer characters play quite differently, so they should add that to the single player experience)
- Weapon weight system, Power system & Combat mechanics (It's the deepest of the three)
- Banter system
post #24 of 64
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightAntilli View Post


On another note... The storyline in ME2 sucks.. Let's see, in the first game:

Quote:
That was the ME1 story in a nutshell. Note that I left a lot of the stuff out, like Noveria mission etc.. The story goes a lot deeper than that, but, that's the main story. What's the main ME2 story?

- You died by an attack from some unknown vessel
- Cerberus brought you back because human colonies are disappearing
- You need to find out why
- You find out the collectors are taking them with the same vessel that killed you
- You need to find out why
- You find out the collectors are actually genetically re-engineered protheans by the reapers
- You find out they are creating a human reaper
- Kill the human reaper
- You get ready to keep fighting the reapers that are still to come


We didn't learn anything significant about the reapers in the whole second game, nor did we gain anything significant (maybe the new Normandy O.o), while that's where the first one left off. We were supposed to be preparing for the next coming invasion, gathering resources and information about the reapers to protect ourselves.

Collectors were known as well.. collectors. People were thinking that Protheans were simply vanished after Reapers. ME2 showed that this doesn't quite true. In fact, Reapers were repurposing the strongest race of the cycle in order to prepare the next. Collectors played a part as a replacement for this role. The reason of building the human reaper was the result of this "pick the strongest one" strategy.

ME1 simply introduced the idea of total extermination, while ME2 opened this one a bit more and introduced "harvest", which Reapers do; ascend advanced organic races and leave primitive ones intact. They were not just crazy sentient machines guys which were killing off the galaxy in cycles as ME1 said. They were picking, selecting races and they were doing this for a reason, which we couldn't find out because ME3 simply ignored that.
Quote:
Instead, the council is turning you away again, you barely have contact with the alliance, and you're out there working for an organization with a bad reputation for no apparent reason. And even worse, the illusive man simply tells you no one does anything about it. You should've at least been able to go and talk to them multiple times, finding evidence etc, and then go back to the illusive man when they still don't listen... That would have drastically improved the story.

Cerberus is a terrorist organization for multiple reasons. Shepard is the "Reaper" expert and the main idea of bringing him back is already explained in the first encounter of the Illusive Man. It's unclear whether the fact he had seen Reaper visions in ME1 and can communicate with Thorian creature plays a part in that.

Council ignored humans since the beginning of the game. Why ? Multiple reasons can be given here. Perhaps saying "Oh look up guys, our doom is approaching and we have to do something about it" was a pretty bad idea ? especially for a trader nation such as Asari, which was the leader race of the Council ?

In ME3, it was said that every race decided to build some special task forces in order to fight against reapers, so Shepard's warning didn't go for nothing.

Also, in ME2, it was explained that the remains of Sovereign was "harvested" by the Keepers so there was not much to confirm the existence of the Reapers. There were lots of Geth ships and the remains of one sentient ship which were collected and destroyed by Keepers. Ilos AI was gone, no one saw visions but there were hundreds of Geth ships. Of course they blamed the Geth. This, again, could be addressed by the player to the council in second game.

Going back and forth won't change anything much because Shepard is branded as Cerberus operative. Any info coming from him has no importance.
Quote:
At the end of the game, you apparently got some info on Harbinger, but, it was never addressed HOW you got that information, nor what information it is. That really ruins the story and immersion compared to the first game.. They should've had some kind of better way to tell how you got it..

Again, we don't know. Perhaps it was thought to be explained in ME3, who knows.
Quote:
In the 2nd game, the collectors are your enemies the whole time, and yet, they fail to be scary.

Played on easy ?
Quote:
In the end, you find out it's the reapers again (no surprise there), but, aside from the last boss battle and final dark space scene, there was no other real threat than the collectors.

Depends. I think the ignorance of the Council is pretty much a threat.
Quote:
Some issues of your team mates.. But, you gotta admit, if they couldn't die, you probably wouldn't go through all the trouble of making all of them loyal... Well, maybe you would, but, you gotta understand, that they are not really a part of the main story, but side-stories. If they die, they don't impact ME2 itself, but, ME3 instead.. So it makes the story of ME2 itself weaker..

If they die, so will you, that's how Shepard can die in the last mission. I don't see the logic here.
Quote:
Don't get me wrong. Mass Effect 2 added a lot of details and expanded the knowledge about the whole universe further, but, the main plot itself is the one that simply lacks. The game has so many set-ups for the 3rd game, but at the same time they kind of forgot the core story a little bit. Basically, you spend most of your time with your team mates, solving their problems. Basically "side-issues" compared to the real threat.. And then we have the ignored dark energy stuff of ME3, but whatever.

You are about to go to a place which no one has ever returned. Team is basically a team of mercenaries. While I agree it was bit annoying of dealing with the recruitment and personal problems phase game still delivered important chunk of info. They weren't used in ME3, but it doesn't change they were.
Quote:
In ME2, you never really use the cypher, and lots of things seem backwards. It's like they didn't really know how to continue the story.. So they thought of improvements to the mechanics instead, and then tacked the story on there later. ME2 story can be completely ignored if you look at it. At the end of ME2, the collectors are destroyed (not to mention ME2 didn't use the cypher at all), so no more relevance to them in the next installment, and whether or not you keep the base, cerberus will come after you in ME3, the reapers are still coming. You could literally skip ME2 and start with ME3, and the only thing you'd actually miss is the new characters, and a few details that could be easily implemented in the codex or in a single mission in ME3. It's the same reason people were saying that the Arrival DLC undermines the whole ME2 game story-wise.. Arrival could've also been used at the end of ME1 and would've worked perfectly.

That's because ME3 sucked, not ME2. You can't say ME2 is bad because ME3 ignored everything. ME2 is the prequel not ME3.
Quote:
- ME1 had barren planets which were tedious to explore, shooting mechanics were crap, cover mechanics were crap, all classes played almost the same, had a bunch of time-wasting elevator rides, terrible performance and pop-in issues, tedious inventory and skill tree system, weapons overheating bug, getting stuck in environments, annoying mini-games..

Agreed.
Quote:
- ME2 had almost no RPG mechanics whatsoever, main story sucked compared to ME1, was mainly a bunch of side quests, planet scanning was a drag (imo worse than mako), barely any exploration because of way too small locations (Citadel, Omega and so on), awful loading times, repetitive mini games, predictable fighting environments, being stuck in environments, apathetic characters (barely interacted with each other), lack of weapons and armor.

ME2 was "causalized" in terms of gameplay so these were quite obvious consequences, much like ME3, agreed.
Quote:
- ME3 has inferior journal, less exploration than ME1, confusing ending, glitches like teleporting characters, lip-sync issues, ME1 import issues, too much disc swapping (X360 only), too many shallow side quests, slightly less choice during conversations.

Same.

On the flipside..
Quote:
- ME1 had the best overall story, the most exploration, the deepest RPG elements and conversations, the most immersion.
- ME2 had improved shooting mechanics, better sidequests, better DLC support, better performance, better animations in conversations, better graphics, better action, better and more character support, each class was really unique.
- ME3 had improved cover-based mechanics over ME2, more verticality in gameplay, more cinematic moments, more variety in enemies, more emotional peaks and valleys, slightly deeper RPG elements than ME2 (weapon mods, skill trees etc), bigger Citadel, best interaction between characters, more variety in weapons..

Last one depends.

Citadel is still small compared to ME1. It looks "big". I also liked those talks between characters and eavesdropping them. That being said, i don't see any emotional improvement and deeper RPG elements in ME3. Killing off important and beloved characters then putting a child in front of my face is not something i'd call emotional. It's rather cliché and dumb, considering this is coming from the people who once said "This ain't Hollywood and there are happy endings in this game."

ME3 had no RPG elements in it. It was an RPG game as ME2 was.

Your choices in ME1 didn't matter.
Your choices in ME2 didn't matter.
You did all those quests in ME3 in order to max the fleet but it still didn't matter in the finale.
Result ? Pick your favorite RGB color.

I wouldn't call that RPG.

ME2 and ME3 suffered the immense popularity or the premise of ME1, they were both casualized in order to reach more people. Stupid dialogue wheel and "no dialogue" option in ME3 was the result of this change.
Quote:
Reading what people in general are saying and comparing it to the pros and cons of all three, it doesn't seem that people hate ME3 because it's actually worse. It's because they disliked the ending that they're nitpicking about everything in ME3, even if it's superior than in the prior ones in many (if not most) ways. The issues of the other two listed above are not somehow irrelevant. You can easily love ME3 for what it is and simply forget about the ending for a second, but most people have chosen otherwise. I don't really get the hate for ME3 specifically while the other ones also had huge flaws, if not bigger flaws... But whatever.

I don't hate ME3 because of last 15 minutes. Sure, this 15 minutes is killing anyway of replaying the entire saga again (because, in your mind you know that your choices won't matter). People hate ME3 because it doesn't belong to Mass Effect universe.
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SR3
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post #25 of 64
Wait so does this mean save data from ME1 and 2 will be used but not 3?
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post #26 of 64
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Originally Posted by candy_van View Post

Wait so does this mean save data from ME1 and 2 will be used but not 3?

 

I interpret it as a fresh start with no save importing.

post #27 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by qosu View Post

Expectations are still in the dumps for anything Bioware makes, they're still a division of EA after all. Having their IPs milked until the studio becomes an empty husk at which point it will be closed.

The pattern has repeated itself more times than you can fathom. Studios rise, evolve, advance; and at the apex of their glory they are EAxtinguished.

Nice.
post #28 of 64
I thought the Mass Effect 3 was perfectly ok. All the events in the story made some level of sense. The writing was sufficient in that it appropriately emphasized the impending end of the universe. I found the wondering amongst the refugees in the citadel, in particular, to be rather impactfull. In terms of the story arch there wasn't a lot the writers could accomplish, especially in the span of one game. If it were a novel I would have expected more nuance and character development, but it wasn't a novel, it is a video game. There are limits on what you can do to correctly emphasize the story without stagnating gameplay, and I think bioware struck a decent balance.

I also didn't really mind the ending. It wasn't amazing, but for a video game it was certainly adequate. I didn't follow the hype though. I went into each game without much in the way of expectations.

I played the series twice and I enjoyed each game each time. I think I appreciated the third game most in my second play through, because I was more familiar with the mass effect universe and could better appreciate the story it was trying to tell. Mass effect 3 was probably my least favorite, but not by much. It wasn't a bad game at all, it just wasn't as good as the other two games. I think I enjoyed mass effect 1 and 2 roughly equally.
post #29 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by TFL Replica View Post

I interpret it as a fresh start with no save importing.

The vibe I got was the same, but guess I was trying to be hopeful.
Always thought it was cool I'd have saves that affected game play over the course of so many years...
Stugots III
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Stugots III
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post #30 of 64
to me, I find it telling that not only can they release a game like ME3 on blaitant lies like they did but they cannot even stand by the game and the choices they've made. It's one thing to admit they made a mistake and go forwards hoping not to repeat it but they're not even doing that. Pathetic imho.

On the other hand, I enjoyed Mass effect. I think from my point of view, ME3 turned sour at the assult on the cerberus HQ. You know this "Super-secret, no one knows where it is and illusive man is so mysterious" hideout? Oh and the cyber ninja that somehow has a stealthfield you can see but can avoid a trained military shot like shepards bullets .. rolleyes.gif For the most part it was fun, the only complaint I had was when I was caught short without my saves and I started a fresh game, I couldn't do certain things like bring the geth and Quarians together.

ME2 was perfect from a storyline standpoint, I loved playing an evil female shepard through that.. Rawr! But I think ME1 is still the best, it has it shortcomings but I was interested in what mods I would get next, the look of the weapons the planets I'd explore. ME2 felt like the universe had lost it's "Newness" and ME3 pretty much just wanted to go "Hey, you're at war, look at all the bad shootings going off!" Typical fare for an american wargame sadly.
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