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[eurogamer] Mass Effect 3 will be irrelevant for Andromeda - Page 5

post #41 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by mothergoose729 View Post

No you are right, intergalactic travel did not exist in the first three games. Mass relays only linked clusters within the milky way. The story will have to provide an explanation for that.

Considering how lacking in cunning/interesting explanations BioWare recently were, i imagine the explanations is something like this :

'In the face of Reaper annihilation, Council reveal the blueprints for secret Prothean device - an Intergalactic Spaceship. All Aboard!'
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post #42 of 64

Moved to Video Game News. Please post news articles in the correct section.

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post #43 of 64
Remember that the reapers can mass jump from far outside the Milky Way galaxy into pretty much the heart of the galaxy (outside the galaxy into the citadel, they do it every cycle). Showing they have massive distance capability, but also can initiate mass relay type jumps themselves without having to be near a relay, only needing to end at one seemingly (since there is no mass relay outside the galaxy, they simply jump to the citadel relay). Even when not using relays, remember that the reapers were sitting WAY outside the galaxy from the cinematic we saw, and it took them something like 6 months or so to go from way outside there to invading earth at normal sublight speeds? They are obviously very very fast when they need to be and can travel around far beyond galaxies (Otherwise how would they get so far outside the galaxy that the entirety of the galaxy is only 2-3" in diameter). This would lead me to think that the Reapers would not simply contain themselves to just the Milky Way, but also would venture other nearby galaxies. Perhaps this is what they do during those 50,000 years between cycles of the Milky Way
Edited by EniGma1987 - 6/25/16 at 10:19am
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post #44 of 64
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Quote:
Which is exactly where the story falls on its face. Shepard gives in to Cerberus too soon. Imagine how it would be, if you had to fight your way to freedom from Cerberus at the beginning of the game. After that, you go to the Citadel and say you were kept prisoner by Cerberus. Then the council still neglects everything you have to say, despite colonies disappearing, you recontact TIM and say that you need to find out what's happening, and the council is not helping.
That alone would have made the story a lot better. That whole part is spoon-fed to you by TIM talking, rather than being experienced by the player through narrative and play. And it's spoon-fed in an incomplete manner as well. No one cried when they didn't have the choice to tell TIM to F off. But everyone was crying when they couldn't tell the so-called star-child to F off.

Well, he had to go directly to the New Horizons first, he returns as a convinced guy against the Collectors threat. Yes, I do agree that the separation between Shepard and the Council could have been better planned.
Quote:
ME3 did not ignore everything. ME3 actually advanced the main plot. ME2 did not. Want to see why?
ME1: A reaper was here, more reapers are coming
ME2: Reaper minions were here, more reapers are coming (still in the same place)
ME3: Reapers are here + Reapers (not) defeated.

I fail to see how ME3 advanced the story. Reapers are here ? Yes, are you doing anything ? Nope. You are set to put the galaxy together, pretty much like equivalent of side quests of ME2. The rest ? You are fighting against the Cerberus. Isn't Cerberus is being controlled by independent cells ? How the entire organization is now being ruled by TIM and its investors believe that it's a good idea to control Reapers ? How did this terrorist organisation had become such a threat it actually rivals the entire Human alliance fleet ?

You are arguing the fact that ME2 didn't bring anything to the story ? Assuming it's true, ME3 didn't bring anything either.

ME2: Please fix my personal problems - ME3: Please fix our personal problems as entire race
ME2: Collectors instead of Reapers - ME3: Cerberus instead of Reapers.

Looks pretty much same to me.
Quote:
ME2 should have moved to the arrival of the reapers for the plot to actually advance, so that ME3 can actually focus on defeating the reapers. ME3 had to take the plot task of two chapters.
I never understood this. How people consider ME2 to be 'more RPG' than ME3 is beyond me. ME2 had no weapon mods, less weapon leveling, smaller skill trees... Not to mention the gameplay of ME3 is a lot deeper than ME2...

Didn't say it was, I said ME2 is a RPG as ME3 = None of them are true RPG games.

C'mon, most of the FPS games have weapon mods now, does this makes them RPG games now ?
Quote:
Besides, I think the child didn't really work for anyone. But come on. You cannot say that any moment in ME2 had the same impact as the Mordin moment in ME3, or the Grunt moment, Thane... Samara...
They didn't kill off more than they needed to. Well, only if you didn't import your save or if you sucked in ME2, then basically everyone dies. Oh wait, so, your choices do matter...?
They didn't matter in ME2 either.
Can't exactly fault ME3 for this when ME2 didn't do it either.

I despise children in general, so the moment I saw that kid in the vent, I'd probably pass and continue to fighting in real life, no joke.

Did you import your saves to ME3 ? Did it work on Mordin ? Nope. Did it work on Samara ? Nope. Did it work on Thane ? Nope. They all died in the end because, the so-called artistic geniuses thought that it'd be good idea to chop bunch of beloved characters in order to deliver "emotional gameplay". I played Withcer 3 like a pro and guess what, no one died (except Vizimir). I still had emotional moments throughout the game.
Quote:
Actually, it mattered based on how many choices you could make at the end of the game, and the details are different. With lower fleet values, everyone gets incinerated for example, while with the whole fleet, only the 'bad guys' get incinerated.

Sure... As a slideshow. Shame that Mass Effect 3 wasn't supposed to be a Telltale game.

Where was the Rachhni queen ?
Where were the survivors of the Zhu's hope ?

What did you get in the end ? Bunch of slideshows...
Quote:
ME1 and ME2 had the illusion of more dialogue. But it did not have more dialogue. ME3 removed some options to allow longer dialogue without breaking the flow of cutscenes and to let the story flow well. Which is exactly why I find the whole 'our choices didn't matter' thing retarded. They tried to resolve as many choices as possible from the prior games, or at least give the illusion. I mean, if you let Wrex live or die in ME1, the consequenecs in ME3 are a LOT bigger than in ME2.

You get a replacement and move on. You probably help the Salarians in this case and get same war assets, nothing to see here.

I would call ME3 a superior game if:

Your decisions actually mattered had had a chance to see them on the battlefield.
Most of the decisions are simply replaceable with something else, and you don't even experience their consequences.
It doesn't care whether you saved the Rachnii queen; you have magically another queen.... because plot demands it !

It doesn't care whether you saved the collector's base; Cerberus turns on you either way. Maybe I just hate the alliance, maybe I am just sick of their bureaucracy, why can't I fight alongside the Cerberus ? Control ending is clearly something Cerberus is opting for, why can't I achieve Control by ONLY playing through Cerberus' side ?

I am playing as Renegade, why do I have to cry for a dead kid ? What kind of renegading is this ?

Thane dies either way,
Mordin dies either way,
Samara can be convinced with simple dialogue,
Jack becomes a Reaper if she's not saved in the game... As a classic reaper with "Jack" name attached.

How does ME3 respected player's decisions ? And yes, we brought up those things during the months of the release, the given answer from developers was "There would be too many variables to work on, we just don't have interest to port over every decision and precise a consequence for it."

Then why did you make them any way ? Bringing bunch of slide shows and make a party DLC doesn't change the fact that ME3 is an incomplete, casualized, fake RPG game. No matter how you sugarcoat it, it will still remain as same old garbage. You are free to play ME3 and consider it as fantastic game, it's not gonna change its RGB ending, nor weak "hurr durr let's make Cerberus bad guys and give them unlimited armada" plot, nor cheap character development full of Hollywood clichés.
Edited by Alvarez - 6/23/16 at 11:49am
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post #45 of 64
If i was EA i really wouldn't be too worried about ppl complaining about the ending. At the end of the day, how many copies of mass effect you sell is what matters.
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post #46 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by EniGma1987 View Post

Remember that the reapers can mass jump from far outside the Milky Way galaxy into pretty much the heart of the galaxy. Showing they have massive distance capability, but also can initiate mass relay type jumps themselves without having to be near a relay, only needing to end at one seemingly. Even when not using relays, remember that the reapers were sitting WAY outside the galaxy from the cinematic we saw, and it took them something like 6 months or so to go from way outside there to invading earth at normal sublight speeds? They are obviously very very fast when they need to be and can travel around far beyond galaxies. This would lead me to think that the Reapers would not simply contain themselves to just the Milky Way, but also other nearby galaxies. Perhaps this is what they do during those 50,000 years between cycles of the Milky Way
Well... They can only jump through mass relays like the rest of 'us'. They reached earth in 6 months because earth is on the edge of the galaxy. It's quite clear that the reapers originated from the Leviathans, and well, they are from our galaxy. Even though it's not impossible for them to reach other galaxies, since they're practically eternal, the most logical conclusion is that they stick to the current galaxy, considering the catalyst was tasked to preserve all advanced life in the current galaxy.
post #47 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alvarez View Post

I fail to see how ME3 advanced the story. Reapers are here ? Yes, are you doing anything ? Nope. You are set to put the galaxy together, pretty much like equivalent of side quests of ME2. The rest ? You are fighting against the Cerberus. Isn't Cerberus is being controlled by independent cells ? How the entire organization is now being ruled by TIM and its investors believe that it's a good idea to control Reapers ? How did this terrorist organisation had become such a threat it actually rivals the entire Human alliance fleet ?
Actually, it makes sense. It was quite obvious that Cerberus was practically turned into reaper pawns. You can see that on the level on Mars. How is not that important to the plot. It happened one way or another, and Cerberus itself is at fault for doing certain experiments with reaper tech. But we can even forget all that. ME3 advanced the story because the final fight with the reapers happened. ME2 is filler. You know Dragonball Z, when two characters meet in the first episode, second episode is all about powering up, and third episode is where the fight happens? The powering up is complete filler, and that is ME2.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alvarez View Post

You are arguing the fact that ME2 didn't bring anything to the story ? Assuming it's true, ME3 didn't bring anything either.
Main plot. There's a different between bringing something to the lore and bringing something to the main plot. ME2 didn't, ME3 did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alvarez View Post

ME2: Please fix my personal problems - ME3: Please fix our personal problems as entire race
Personal problems as an entire race...? Yeah no, personal and race can't go together here. But why you're doing it is what determines if it advances the plot or not. In ME3 you're doing it because you're in a final battle for survival of all the advanced species of the galaxies. You know, the thing that was announced since the first game. That's why you need to unite the races.
In ME2, well, you do it for your crew because you want to stop the collectors from making humans disappear. The collectors are filler. No connection to ME1 nor ME3.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alvarez View Post

ME2: Collectors instead of Reapers - ME3: Cerberus instead of Reapers.
Except Cerberus was in the first game, a key player in the second game, and indoctrinated in the third. Collectors only appear in the second game. Again, Collectors are filler.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alvarez View Post

C'mon, most of the FPS games have weapon mods now, does this makes them RPG games now ?
For Mass Effect, the weapon mods are more significant since it actually can change your style of play, rather than being a power boost like mods in most games. But FPS games have actually copied these elements from RPG games. They are at heart RPG game features. And when comparing ME2 to ME3, ME3 does it better, which is what we were talking about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alvarez View Post

I despise children in general, so the moment I saw that kid in the vent, I'd probably pass and continue to fighting in real life, no joke.
I used to be like you. Then you remember that you were a child once... As an INTP myself, I dislike people in general, but that's another story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alvarez View Post

Did you import your saves to ME3 ? Did it work on Mordin ? Nope. Did it work on Samara ? Nope. Did it work on Thane ? Nope. They all died in the end because, the so-called artistic geniuses thought that it'd be good idea to chop bunch of beloved characters in order to deliver "emotional gameplay".
Yeah I imported, and I know that Mordin can live at another cost, Samara can too since she did in mine, and Thane was terminal since ME2. So... Yeah. And what about the Grunt moment? That was awesome and he didn't need to die for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alvarez View Post

I played Withcer 3 like a pro and guess what, no one died (except Vizimir). I still had emotional moments throughout the game.
ME3 had these moments too, without killing people off... I think the only ones that actually died in my game were Mordin, Legion and Thane. Three out of uh.. A lot is not that bad lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alvarez View Post

Where was the Rachhni queen ?
Uh... She was there in my game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alvarez View Post

Where were the survivors of the Zhu's hope ?
Well.. We got an e-mail from Shiala lol. It's not much, but, it's something.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alvarez View Post

What did you get in the end ? Bunch of slideshows...
You get a replacement and move on. You probably help the Salarians in this case and get same war assets, nothing to see here.

I would call ME3 a superior game if:

Your decisions actually mattered had had a chance to see them on the battlefield.
Most of the decisions are simply replaceable with something else, and you don't even experience their consequences.
It doesn't care whether you saved the Rachnii queen; you have magically another queen.... because plot demands it !
I agree that that was dumb, regarding the Rachni queen...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alvarez View Post

It doesn't care whether you saved the collector's base; Cerberus turns on you either way.
TIM either achieved what he wanted, so he doesn't need you anymore, or you pissed him off, and he doesn't want you anymore. No rocket science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alvarez View Post

Maybe I just hate the alliance, maybe I am just sick of their bureaucracy, why can't I fight alongside the Cerberus ? Control ending is clearly something Cerberus is opting for, why can't I achieve Control by ONLY playing through Cerberus' side ?
Considering uniting the galaxy is a thing, the Alliance is a much better ally than Cerberus would ever be, considering they're practically anti anything that's not human. And humanity cannot win this battle alone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alvarez View Post

I am playing as Renegade, why do I have to cry for a dead kid ? What kind of renegading is this ?
Renegades also suffer from PTSD, although, I do agree that it was poorly executed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alvarez View Post

Thane dies either way,
Mordin dies either way,
Samara can be convinced with simple dialogue,
Jack becomes a Reaper if she's not saved in the game... As a classic reaper with "Jack" name attached.

How does ME3 respected player's decisions ? And yes, we brought up those things during the months of the release, the given answer from developers was "There would be too many variables to work on, we just don't have interest to port over every decision and precise a consequence for it."

Then why did you make them any way ? Bringing bunch of slide shows and make a party DLC doesn't change the fact that ME3 is an incomplete, casualized, fake RPG game. No matter how you sugarcoat it, it will still remain as same old garbage. You are free to play ME3 and consider it as fantastic game, it's not gonna change its RGB ending, nor weak "hurr durr let's make Cerberus bad guys and give them unlimited armada" plot, nor cheap character development full of Hollywood clichés.
Cerberus was bad in the first game.
ME3 was clearly under time constraints by EA, which limited what BioWare could do, and the game suffered for it.
But expecting extensive resolution for EVERYTHING from the first and second game is not realistic. ME3 does not have to respect all the player choices.... It's war. Things are gonna go sideways.
post #48 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILoveHighDPI View Post

Excellent.
Mass Effect 3 should just be retconned, the Reapers won
I would actually like this over 9k.
More: I would like to discover that Reapers are everywhere in the universe and that they are right and we are wrong.
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post #49 of 64
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Actually, it makes sense. It was quite obvious that Cerberus was practically turned into reaper pawns. You can see that on the level on Mars. How is not that important to the plot. It happened one way or another, and Cerberus itself is at fault for doing certain experiments with reaper tech. But we can even forget all that. ME3 advanced the story because the final fight with the reapers happened. ME2 is filler. You know Dragonball Z, when two characters meet in the first episode, second episode is all about powering up, and third episode is where the fight happens? The powering up is complete filler, and that is ME2.

No it doesn't. You are forgetting the fact the Cerberus is not a homogenous organisation but much like terror cell, of which cells pperate independant from each other. There are no strict hierarchy in Cerberus, each cell can take decisions technically. Lazarus Project was under the control of Lawson she was operating under the TIM directly. Other Cerberus cells even its investors can simply say "Guys... guys ? I think we're a bit off from our objectives, no ?"

Cerberus' transformation of ME3's Collectors is plain ridicolous in every sense.
Quote:
Personal problems as an entire race...? Yeah no, personal and race can't go together here. But why you're doing it is what determines if it advances the plot or not. In ME3 you're doing it because you're in a final battle for survival of all the advanced species of the galaxies. You know, the thing that was announced since the first game. That's why you need to unite the races.
In ME2, well, you do it for your crew because you want to stop the collectors from making humans disappear. The collectors are filler. No connection to ME1 nor ME3.
Except Cerberus was in the first game, a key player in the second game, and indoctrinated in the third. Collectors only appear in the second game. Again, Collectors are filler.

Not quite true. Collectors are threat because, much like Keepers and Saren in ME1, they are acting as a backdoor of Reapers. They are abducting humans not because for fun, but because they are harvesting them, creating a army by either using them in H.Reaper or turning them into husks. I do agree however, this was not quite underlined in ME2 or you had the impression about what and how Collectors are dangerous because we are dealing with so many side missions. But that doesn't change anything about Collectors nor how they advanced the plot.

About personal problems of race..

Salarians: Don't help Krogans
Krogans: Help us please for curing the genophage
Asari: Man I cant help you guys out, I wanna protect my city. Then: Help us to save our capital (you couldnt')
Turians: Please can you extract our primarch so we can decide whether we should join you guys ? Then: Please save my son his ships is down.
Humans: We're gonna takh backh Earthhh
Quarians: We want our homeworld baghhh

I'm sorry, I fail to see any connection between these missions and Reapers.
Quote:
Except Cerberus was in the first game, a key player in the second game, and indoctrinated in the third. Collectors only appear in the second game. Again, Collectors are filler
.

Again.. you can not indoctrinate an entire organisation in 3 years, which is operating as sleeper cells. These guys had connections in the Council and in the Human Alliance. If they are indoctrinated, Shepard should've been executed for treason.
Quote:
For Mass Effect, the weapon mods are more significant since it actually can change your style of play, rather than being a power boost like mods in most games. But FPS games have actually copied these elements from RPG games. They are at heart RPG game features. And when comparing ME2 to ME3, ME3 does it better, which is what we were talking about.

I played RPG games which had tons of personalisation but lacks the story.
I played FPS games which had no personalisation but it was giving you a story.

I don't know which is more important to you but, I prefer a RPG game without weapon mods but with a logical plot which player decisions actually matter.
Quote:
Yeah I imported, and I know that Mordin can live at another cost, Samara can too since she did in mine, and Thane was terminal since ME2. So... Yeah. And what about the Grunt moment? That was awesome and he didn't need to die for it.

He can live how ? You either kill him or he blows himself off. Sure you have to kill Wrex, and that's exactly what I'm talking about, why I hate ME3 and don't call it RPG. See, you have to kill another character in FIRST game in order to save the other. Why ? Why I can't play like boss, kill and destroy everything on my path and save all of my friends ?

Because some developer thought that is a good idea to kill some characters in order to give "emotional" experience. I hate that. Let players to decide who lives and dies, let them fail so they lose their buddies or let them win and save their friends. ME2 exactly does that, not ME3.

About Grunt, he couldn't die, he was wearing his plot armor. Guy falls from a cliff and survives, a salarian specialist dies in front of a computer.
Quote:
ME3 had these moments too, without killing people off... I think the only ones that actually died in my game were Mordin, Legion and Thane. Three out of uh.. A lot is not that bad lol.

I even forgot Legion, thanks for reminding. He was also dying. Speaking of which, the ONLY and ONLY RPG moment in ME3, was ironicaly that part. Game doesn't force you to kill someone.

Did you do Tali's mission in ME2 ?
Did you do Legion's mission in ME2 ?
What were their outcomes ?

If you have a sort of magical mixture, YOU COULD save Geth AND Quarians BOTH. That's a fantastic result of awarding the player who played the game like a boss. (I mean "boss"; I mean player who completed most of the side missions and actually invested time in the game) No one has to die, both lives happily after (that is if and will ignore the ending)

Then again, this missions was actually written by someone else, that's normal it was RPGesque.
Quote:
Uh... She was there in my game.

She was ? Sure, asking your help... again. I also saved her in ME1, what did she bring new ? Did we get Rachnii swarm in London ? Nope. We had 200 War assets and they could be as well gotten if I had saved Krogan squads. She's irrelevant.
Quote:
TIM either achieved what he wanted, so he doesn't need you anymore, or you pissed him off, and he doesn't want you anymore. No rocket science.

I gave him Collector's data (ME2), did all of his side missions (ME2), kept the collectors base and handed over him (ME2). Maybe I wanted to become Cerberus operative, why would he need a loser like that guy with swords ? (He was so forgettable character that I even forgot his name)

Why can't I become the bad guy and rule out the Council with Cerberus and Udina and go on with it ? Details...
Quote:
Considering uniting the galaxy is a thing, the Alliance is a much better ally than Cerberus would ever be, considering they're practically anti anything that's not human. And humanity cannot win this battle alone.

2 things about Cerberus:

First, they didn't have to go bad, since Shepard was indirectly repairing their reputation in ME2. True that they're xenophobes, but the real threat here is the Reapers not aliens. It was still possible to achieve, Humanity as the dominant race and fight alongside aliens. ME2 was this after all. One should not forget that they are the ones who built Normandy V2, which shows that Cerberus clearly have the upper hand in terms of technology. Considering they were pretty much everywhere in ME3, they could pack pretty heavy punch in terms of military power.

Second, even if they go bad, player should've had a chance to pick a side, because of all the reasons above.

Imagine here for a second; Shepard decides to help Cerberus, Control is a bonus ending for Cerberus path, Shepard assumes direct control of Reapers and enslaves the entire galaxy, leading human as dominant race.

What a terrible yet awesome yet dark ending it could've been.
Quote:
Renegades also suffer from PTSD, although, I do agree that it was poorly executed.

He could've cried over Virmire MIA, or Thane or Reaper indoctrination.. But a kid, stuck in a vent ? C'mon...
Quote:
Cerberus was bad in the first game.
ME3 was clearly under time constraints by EA, which limited what BioWare could do, and the game suffered for it.
But expecting extensive resolution for EVERYTHING from the first and second game is not realistic. ME3 does not have to respect all the player choices.... It's war. Things are gonna go sideways.

That's what they've said. Sure it'd be physically impossible at some point. But making somethings irrelevant is plain absurd:

Saved Council in ME1 = Irrelevant (already irrelevant in ME2)
Killed Council in ME1 -> Human led council = Alien led council in ME2 = Irrelevant
Saved Destiny Ascension = Irrelevant, since it can be replaced with more human fleet in war assets if player chooses to kill council.
Collector's base = Irrelevant
Rachnii = Irrelevant
Human Reaper = Irrelevant
Side missions over characters in ME3 = Irrelevant (It DID matter in ME2)

What happened to dark energy thing ? Oh right.... It met "artistic integrity" and EA's moneygrubbing. ME3 makes previous games irrelevant. You could still play ME3 as if it was a new game and without knowing what has actually happened before. It works just fine, you don't have to play previous games in order to get something plus for the final war.

That's why there are "war assets". No racchnii ? Sure, take your 200 assets. Saved rachnii ? Aw.. that's bad, now I'm gonna take 200 assets back from you by killing krogan squads of yours. That's why your decisions don't matter, since either way they are awarding. That's why they are killing bunch of characters, because they don't matter to new player who has no idea who Mordin was. Hiding plot failures and logical nonsence behind killing characters is easier than thinking and creating a good plot. They didn't need that. That's why you also has "no RPG" option in ME3, which allows every decisions is given by the game not by the player.
Edited by Alvarez - 6/24/16 at 10:00am
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post #50 of 64
I'm still waiting for the real ending. Where EDI hacking the kids' systems with a real AXE, we'll just destroy you without destroying anything else, thank you.

The most frustrating thing was it felt empty after I worked so hard (actually built me1 and me2 saves with a trainer for the exact purpose) to make peace between geth and quarians. "No you don't get to keep that, everything you did was for naught", lost the feeling of accomplishment, so **** you whoever designed those endings. I still think they shouldn't have multiple endings. They should've made the crucible kill reapers, and anderson scene should've been final.

No mass effect game will cure that feeling I felt when I was given the choices,so it doesn't matter if they followed me3 or not.

I could watch this thousand times instead of options seqeuence:
Edited by Catscratch - 6/24/16 at 10:51am
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