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[TinyBuild] G2A sold $450k worth of our game keys that we received no payment for - Page 13

post #121 of 260
I've lurked this forum for the past four years and I finally made an account today, because g2a's behavior is despicable and it astonishes me how people can defend it.

To begin with, Tinybuild was extremely transparent in their claim. The 450k figure is an exgaration, but they make it very clear. Furthermore, they know that 197k was what the total of every key that had sold for on g2a. Now, not every key was stolen. The real problem that exists for this is how g2a responded, which killed any chance I ever have from buying from them.

g2a first claims absolutely no liability for anything that occurred and plainly states no money will be returned. Second, they try to partner with Tinybuild - mind you that this is asking the company to lower the price of its product considerably, not to mention g2a would get a cut of the pie. More importantly, they dance around the problem of stolen keys entirely.

Think about how you'd feel if you were unknowingly an accomplice to a criminal act. Chances are, you would feel used and upset that you harmed others. That's because you know the difference between right and wrong, and you did wrong. A good business should also be morally sound. Yet g2a clearly isn't: Not only do they first focus on stating they weren't involved, they immediately try to sell to the company.

Furthermore, they have not at all tried to make up for their actions or, at the very least, try to ensure it doesn't happen again. Rather, they seem perfectly happy with being involved with credit card fraud. Something doesn't sit right; g2a just doesn't care.

I'll allege further, however, and say that they go beyond not caring, but instead actively encourage illegal goods being sold on their marketplace. There's two things that point to this; the first of which is g2a's storefront. A customer has the option to purchase a guarantee that their product will arrive. This is absolutely absurd for two reasons: 1: it is assumed that their is a risk of being scammed intrinsically; in other words, scammers not only exist on g2a, but g2a makes money from scammers existing. g2a has no motivation to stop scammers whatsoever.

The second reason I believe g2a encourages illegal goods being used on their site is their statement on this whole affair:

"At G2A we believe in being innocent until proven guilty, meaning we believe that all of our 200k merchants are legit until proven otherwise. We support merchants and assume they operate within the law. Of course, unfair “players” appear in any business, which unfortunately includes our system. Nonetheless, G2A does not hold any liability for vulnerabilities in someone’s billing system."

What did they do? First, they said that there is no prevention for a scammer to sell on g2a. Moreover, g2a claims no liability for customers being scammed. They are completely indifferent to having scammers on their system. Given that scammers give them profit, this shouldn't come as a surprise.

Additionally, I want to touch on the fact that g2a claims to work with publishers, they namedrop a few in their statement: "Gaijin, Bitbox, Herocraft, Nekki, Nival." Fun fact: Every publisher they work with deals with free to play games or games with microtransactions. This is an entirely different business model from Tinybuild, and cannot be compared whatsoever, as g2a does not undercut these companies profit.

To take this back to Tinybuild, they have no responsibility to get every single fraudulent key. As long as a single fraudulent key was sold on g2a, there is a problem.

The fact is, g2a doesn't care about the presence of scammers. They do not care about doing the right thing, and are not taking any action to protect their customers. This is an awful business, and I suggest you should never buy from them again.
post #122 of 260
I agree with Ganf, buy the games you love at full price to support the Dev.

If a game does not interest you don't buy.

If the game interests you but the Dev/Publisher is making you jump hoops with higher then normal prices, extra content for pre-orders, day one DLC, micro transactions, gimics, punishing DRM etc... buy the games at the bargain bin.
 
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post #123 of 260
I have been trying to buy Dragon Age Inquisition on origin for 2 days, kept getting errors during checkout. EA customer service still have not resolved the issue. Went on G2A and got the key in 10 min for less. Do not care what G2A does, if it is the place where I can actually buy a game and cheaper I will keep shopping there. The games I want day one, I purchase at 20% off on GMG, other games I buy only on sale and where it is the cheapest that is where I will shop. If big publishes want to do something about sites like G2A they could, but they do nothing.
Edited by Mirotvorez113 - 6/24/16 at 6:37pm
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post #124 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by CynicalUnicorn View Post

But why is a non-transferable key a bad thing? If I buy, let's say, a GPU second-hand, I save money, but I also get a product that is strictly speaking worse than purchasing new. It's degraded in some way. Some dust here, a worn-down core that needs a few more millivolts to maintain boost clocks, worn-down fan bearings that are ever closer to failing, and so on. If I buy a CD key second hand, what do I lose? Absolutely nothing. It is exactly as good as buying new. Meanwhile the dev doesn't see a single cent from the second hand sale. The only way it's better than piracy is because the original owner can no longer use it.

But you better believe it's terrible for bottom lines. Just look at Gamestop and similar. Used games for $5 less than new. Gamestop has massive profit margins on that, easily $30 for a brand new release, and the dev sees no money at all from it. Worse, if a game has online services, the dev now needs to spend money on not one but two people using them, so they're indirectly spending more money than they would otherwise on one license. Servers ain't cheap. Having heard arguments from this perspective, it actually isn't so bad that EA for example had online passes for their games. Buy new and you get it for free, buy used and you spend $15 or so to play online. Completely reasonable given the server upkeep costs.

But doesn't the exact same thing happen if you resell a console game? I guess you could argue the physical disc degrades a bit, but that's largely inconsequential. And devs don't seem to have an issue with console games being resold, so why are digital keys any different?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunderman456 View Post

I agree with Ganf, buy the games you love at full price to support the Dev.

If a game does not interest you don't buy.

If the game interests you but the Dev/Publisher is making you jump hoops with higher then normal prices, extra content for pre-orders, day one DLC, micro transactions, gimics, punishing DRM etc... buy the games at the bargain bin.

If I knew in advance when those games would hit the bargain bin and how much of a bargain I'd be getting, yeah I probably wouldn't mind waiting as long as it was something reasonable (ie NOT 2 years+). But not all games get to the bargain bin, and sometimes the "bargain" is downright laughable (15% off for a 2 year old game, hello are you nuts?).

Indie devs don't generally have this problem because they don't overprice their games to begin with, plus I happen to like a lot of the stuff they put out, so for those two reasons I'm a lot more inclined to pay full price for indie games.
post #125 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by early View Post

If the alternative is not buying the game at all (because the price is too high) reselling on places like G2A helps the company. Lower price = more sales = potentially more profit. This is economy 101.
Keep in mind that the vast majority of keys on G2A are legit, meaning that game devs get paid for them.

reselling doesn't help the company because the one who resold it isn't the company.
how do you expect the company to get profit off someone selling 2nd hand goods? is there a tax or percentage off that sales?
e.g. if i resold my processor will intel earn more money? not only did intel not earn money, they lost another customer from buying a brandnew processor.

furthermore, you get much less overall sales from reselling goods, because you sell much less product.
e.g. instead of selling 1000 brandnew product, you ended up selling only 700 brandnew, and 300 of those 700 are resold without a profit for the company.
Edited by epic1337 - 6/24/16 at 7:40pm
post #126 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by early View Post

If the alternative is not buying the game at all (because the price is too high) reselling on places like G2A helps the company. Lower price = more sales = potentially more profit. This is economy 101.
Keep in mind that the vast majority of keys on G2A are legit, meaning that game devs get paid for them.

reselling doesn't help the company because the one who resold it isn't the company.
how do you expect the company to get profit off someone selling 2nd hand goods? is there a tax or percentage off that sales?
e.g. if i resold my processor will intel earn more money? not only did intel not earn money, they lost another customer from buying a brandnew processor.

furthermore, you get much less overall sales from reselling goods, because you sell much less product.
e.g. instead of selling 1000 brandnew product, you ended up selling only 700 brandnew, and 300 of those 700 are resold without a profit for the company.

Let's ban the second hand market because the original maker doesn't make even more money than they already are. Those poor, starving billionaires. What would they do without you defending their purchase of another few dozen politicians or a few unnamed islands. I feel so sad for them I want to shed a tear.

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post #127 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

reselling doesn't help the company because the one who resold it isn't the company.
how do you expect the company to get profit off someone selling 2nd hand goods? is there a tax or percentage off that sales?
e.g. if i resold my processor will intel earn more money? not only did intel not earn money, they lost another customer from buying a brandnew processor.

furthermore, you get much less overall sales from reselling goods, because you sell much less product.
e.g. instead of selling 1000 brandnew product, you ended up selling only 700 brandnew, and 300 of those 700 are resold without a profit for the company.

Honestly if AAA devs allowed reselling of digital keys, I bet you a ferocious battle of beer pong that these gray market sites would all disappear within a few years. So they have only themselves to blame.
post #128 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnek View Post

Honestly if AAA devs allowed reselling of digital keys, I bet you a ferocious battle of beer pong that these gray market sites would all disappear within a few years. So they have only themselves to blame.

if they make a built-in market on their system (steam is one) where the company gets a small percentage off the resold goods, then yes it'll be more convenient for the sellers.
but it'll still be much less of a good result for the game devs, some devs really do need every sales they can get so these sorts of reselling is actually a loss for them.
post #129 of 260
Ya I agree indie devs need all the support they can get, which is why I have no issue paying full price for indie games (most of them aren't overpriced to begin with anyway).

But AAA devs are a whole other story, and don't even get me started on Ubisoft.
post #130 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnek View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

reselling doesn't help the company because the one who resold it isn't the company.
how do you expect the company to get profit off someone selling 2nd hand goods? is there a tax or percentage off that sales?
e.g. if i resold my processor will intel earn more money? not only did intel not earn money, they lost another customer from buying a brandnew processor.

furthermore, you get much less overall sales from reselling goods, because you sell much less product.
e.g. instead of selling 1000 brandnew product, you ended up selling only 700 brandnew, and 300 of those 700 are resold without a profit for the company.

Honestly if AAA devs allowed reselling of digital keys, I bet you a ferocious battle of beer pong that these gray market sites would all disappear within a few years. So they have only themselves to blame.

It would definitely reduce it as most 'piracy' (piracy was never the theft itself but the control of distribution thus it's the developers and publishers who are the real pirates) is committed by people who can't afford the purchase anyway?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnek View Post

Ya I agree indie devs need all the support they can get, which is why I have no issue paying full price for indie games (most of them aren't overpriced to begin with anyway).

But AAA devs are a whole other story, and don't even get me started on Ubisoft.

This is like saying that a small manufacturer deserves all the support thus DRM is acceptable but a large manufacturer should allow second hand sales. This does not work with physical goods and thus it should not work with digital ones.


Edited by Liranan - 6/24/16 at 8:42pm
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