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[POLYGON] Gray market reseller rolls over, agrees to incremental changes at G2A (update) - Page 5

post #41 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhadamanthys View Post

So I don't really get this whole thing, can somebody enlighten me, please? People selling allegedly stolen keys – where do they get these keys from or how do they obtain them to warrant the label 'stolen'? Are they hacked from a database or something? Can anyone please describe the 'fraud' that is committed there?

Step 1: Buy a list of card numbers on black market
Step 2: Buy a bunch of game keys
Step 3: Sell them on G2A
Step 4: Don't care that the person who owned the card charged back, since you used G2A to launder the money into money you can spend.
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post #42 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy9000 View Post

Step 1: Buy a list of card numbers on black market
Step 2: Buy a bunch of game keys
Step 3: Sell them on G2A
Step 4: Don't care that the person who owned the card charged back, since you used G2A to launder the money into money you can spend.

Cheers, that makes sense. Does it occur on G2A only, or are other places (e.g. Kinguin) affected on a similar scale?
post #43 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhadamanthys View Post

Cheers, that makes sense. Does it occur on G2A only, or are other places (e.g. Kinguin) affected on a similar scale?

G2A is the easiest to sell on, so it happens more there... but it does happen on Kinguin and other sites some too.
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post #44 of 59
when it's argued world wide, there is probably some truth. They probably willingly sell stolen keys. The question that should really be asked, are you so cheap as to use websites that knowingly do fraudulent activities just to save a buck? Cause it's the people ultimately doing this.

Inaction is the same as doing the crime, you are saying it's ok.You don't care, have this money cause Im too poor to care.

The same reason torrent sites still exist. There is enough people who don't care and want something. So you get this legal grey area generally promoting illicit things.
Edited by mushroomboy - 6/29/16 at 4:18pm
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post #45 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroomboy View Post

when it's argued world wide, there is probably some truth. They probably willingly sell stolen keys. The question that should really be asked, are you so cheap as to use websites that knowingly do fraudulent activities just to save a buck? Cause it's the people ultimately doing this.

Inaction is the same as doing the crime, you are saying it's ok.You don't care, have this money cause Im too poor to care.

The same reason torrent sites still exist. There is enough people who don't care and want something. So you get this legal grey area generally promoting illicit things.

It is actually far more evil than torrenting, in this case.

With torrenting, you are obtaining something you didn't pay for, at the cost of a potential sale from the developer. They don't really lose anything tangible, although they can certainly lose profits. No one other than the person downloading the torrent is really gaining anything either, and they do so at their own risk.

With buying stolen keys, you are actively feeding a black market demand for both stolen keys and stolen credit cards, rewarding criminals who steal credit card info and cd keys with real money, costing the developer/publisher of the game a small fortune due to all the chargeback fees, etc. Oh, and for good measure, it is costing the end user more money too, despite that money never making it to anyone other than criminals.

It truly boggles me that anyone would prefer G2A over torrenting. Personally I do not advocate either, as games take money and time to develop, and the people who invested that time and money should be rewarded if their game is actually worth playing. Gaming is not an expensive hobby after all, and if we want it so not suck, we need to invest into it. That said, if you are the kind of person who would willingly buy stolen keys, and are unwilling to buy legitimate keys or abstain from a particular title, please just pirate directly instead, save yourself some money, and do a lot less harm to both the gaming industry and the victims of credit card fraud.
Edited by Zero4549 - 6/29/16 at 4:41pm
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post #46 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero4549 View Post


It truly boggles me that anyone would prefer G2A over torrenting. Personally I do not advocate either, as games take money and time to develop, and the people who invested that time and money should be rewarded if their game is actually worth playing. Gaming is not an expensive hobby after all, and if we want it so not suck, we need to invest into it. That said, if you are the kind of person who would willingly buy stolen keys, please just pirate directly instead, save yourself some money, and do a lot less harm to both the gaming industry and the victims of credit card fraud.

What a silly way to look at the issue.

First off, torrenting and buying a key aren't the same thing. They don't give you access to the same features (multiplayer, etc.).

Second off, you're assuming that just because some people resell keys illicitly - they're all illegally obtained. That's bull and you know it. People should have every right to sell a key an extra key they might posses if the developer granted them that right in the first place. Just because you have some guys who do it the wrong way doesn't necessarily mean the developer didn't get any money. The entire industry would witch-hunt these sites, rather than a small few random indie developers who constantly throw mass bundles keys into the abyss known as the internet and expect nothing to go wrong.

Third off, your argument is that we shouldn't buy keys because the developers are too lazy to distribute their keys in a safe and secure manner.

Why not try placing the responsibility where it actually belongs? It's obviously much easier for publishers to keep a tighter grip on their keys (and obviously don't allow customers to purchase them in bulk for the purpose of charge-backs) than it is for every key reseller in the internet to thoroughly investigate every person who sells a key on their site. Craigslist doesn't thoroughly investigate their users. Ebay doesn't either. Stolen things are very often sold on both of those sites. Should we shut those down too? There's absolutely zero logic on your fence of the argument that G2A or key reselling sites are evil.

I'm sensing virtue signaling and not a ton of real sense.
post #47 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by t1337dude View Post

What a silly way to look at the issue.

First off, torrenting and buying a key aren't the same thing. They don't give you access to the same features (multiplayer, etc.).

Second off, you're assuming that just because some people resell keys illicitly - they're all illegally obtained. That's bull and you know it. People should have every right to sell a key an extra key they might posses if the developer granted them that right in the first place. Just because you have some guys who do it the wrong way doesn't necessarily mean the developer didn't get any money. The entire industry would witch-hunt these sites, rather than a small few random indie developers who constantly throw mass bundles keys into the abyss known as the internet and expect nothing to go wrong.

Third off, your argument is that we shouldn't buy keys because the developers are too lazy to distribute their keys in a safe and secure manner.

Why not try placing the responsibility where it actually belongs? It's obviously much easier for publishers to keep a tighter grip on their keys (and obviously don't allow customers to purchase them in bulk for the purpose of charge-backs) than it is for every key reseller in the internet to thoroughly investigate every person who sells a key on their site. Craigslist doesn't thoroughly investigate their users. Ebay doesn't either. Stolen things are very often sold on both of those sites. Should we shut those down too? There's absolutely zero logic on your fence of the argument that G2A or key reselling sites are evil.

I'm sensing virtue signaling and not a ton of real sense.

You clearly do not understand the mechanism by which this issue occurs. Keys are not being bought in bulk. Keys are purchased in high frequency, but only a small quantity of keys are purchased per stolen credit card. You cannot feasibly block this method of key theft by simply limiting the number of keys purchasable per card, as any limit strict enough would negatively impact legitimate users.

In fact, you seem to not understand many of the things to which you are speaking, so I would advise you inform yourself on the subjects at hand before spouting off about them.
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post #48 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by t1337dude View Post

What a silly way to look at the issue.

First off, torrenting and buying a key aren't the same thing. They don't give you access to the same features (multiplayer, etc.).

Which makes piracy preferable for the dev. At least there they don't have to pay to maintain a server that one more player is using.

Quote:
Second off, you're assuming that just because some people resell keys illicitly - they're all illegally obtained. That's bull and you know it. People should have every right to sell a key an extra key they might posses if the developer granted them that right in the first place. Just because you have some guys who do it the wrong way doesn't necessarily mean the developer didn't get any money. The entire industry would witch-hunt these sites, rather than a small few random indie developers who constantly throw mass bundles keys into the abyss known as the internet and expect nothing to go wrong.

This is not unreasonable. To be honest I don't know the rates of legitimately vs fraudulently obtained keys. If we could get some hard numbers, that'd be nice, but it also seems quite infeasible. I don't think the sites responsible for this would like to release those numbers unless they're at zero.

Quote:
Third off, your argument is that we shouldn't buy keys because the developers are too lazy to distribute their keys in a safe and secure manner.

But... It's not a problem with the devs at all. The way these are obtained, with stolen credit cards, go through every proper channel: key is purchased in a store, credit card is used, payment is received, key is sent. Are there mechanisms in place to track chargebacks or stolen cards and keys they purchased? If yes, that's still on the storefront and not the dev to make them secure.

Unless you would like the developers to monopolize sale of their keys and have always-online DRM. That'd stop this problem easily. wink.gif
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post #49 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero4549 View Post

That said, if you are the kind of person who would willingly buy stolen keys.
Surely you like a lot to throw the "stolen keys" phrase without a bit of proof. Again,just because some sellers do CC fraud it does not allow you to generalize the whole G2A marketplace as scammer's heaven. rolleyes.gif

And again,you're in no rational position to say such sentence,because to begin with there's no way someone can willingly buy stolen keys when they don't even know they are stolen keys.

Nice try to shaft the blaming from the fraudulent sellers to the persons who buy from G2A though. This thread is literally full of this,people get mad at persons who buy at G2A or G2A itself for something they have no control of.

Irrational behaviour at it's finest.
Edited by GoLDii3 - 6/29/16 at 6:57pm
post #50 of 59
What do devs and publishers value more?

The ease and "patchability" of digital distribution or the clamping down of fraudulently obtained copies?

Because selling your game on DVDs with disc-in-tray checks might really stop this too.

Perhaps a "cooling off" period where it takes 31 days for a transaction to fully clear... that would really stop this to...

Devs and publisher CAN clamp down on this but they don't since they know it would hurt sales over all.
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