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post #2331 of 3674
Honestly that 550$ price for 7970 actually worth it if you compare that to og titan's 1000$, now looking at how both cards perform nowadays. thumb.gif
post #2332 of 3674
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slomo4shO View Post

Recall that when the Titan was launched, AMD had no products that could compete. Even the announcement for Hawaii came months after the Titan launch. The lack of competition allowed Nvidia to foster in a new age of inflated prices. It is what monopolies do best wink.gif

To quote Jensen Huang:

Same thing with HD 7970. No completion from Nvidia.
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post #2333 of 3674
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZealotKi11er View Post

Same thing with HD 7970. No completion from Nvidia.

The HD 7970 was, in fact, competing directly against the GTX 580 for 3 months. Hence the logic behind the prince inflation from AMD.

The GTX 680 was released on March 22, 2012. Notice the subsequent 7% market share gains by Nvidia? If anything, the HD 7970 was poor competition for the GTX 680 at the time of launch. Yes, the HD 7970 got better with time but does future performance gains ever play a role in present purchase decisions?

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post #2334 of 3674
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slomo4shO View Post

The HD 7970 was, in fact, competing directly against the GTX 580 for 3 months. Hence the logic behind the prince inflation from AMD.

The GTX 680 was released on March 22, 2012. Notice the subsequent 7% market share gains by Nvidia? If anything, the HD 7970 was poor competition for the GTX 680 at the time of launch. Yes, the HD 7970 got better with time but does future performance gains ever play a role in present purchase decisions?

For a lot of budget minded ppl...yes. That's one of the reasons it keeps coming up that recent past gens of amd cards fair better in the long run. The upgrade fever if you will is more of high end market symptom, so many in the lower segments consider longevity in purchase decisions.
post #2335 of 3674
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slomo4shO View Post

The HD 7970 was, in fact, competing directly against the GTX 580 for 3 months. Hence the logic behind the prince inflation from AMD.

The GTX 680 was released on March 22, 2012. Notice the subsequent 7% market share gains by Nvidia? If anything, the HD 7970 was poor competition for the GTX 680 at the time of launch. Yes, the HD 7970 got better with time but does future performance gains ever play a role in present purchase decisions?

People should start think in a better way. My 280x served me well for 2 years. I've changed the card only because my second monitor died and I replaced it with a 1440p one, so the 280x wasn't enough for Ultra. Still, more than capable if I turn down some settings.
2 years ago, many people suggest me go with the 770,and I said no, regardless of power draw or temps (by the way, vapor x, so temps is not an issue) because it was faster and bla bla bla. What now? The 280x is on pair with the 780 and sometimes can even match the 780ti. After that card I got the 290x and guess what? 250€. My 280x cost me 120€ (yes I'm a lucky man, still it cost way less than a 770 then and even now). I saved some money doing that. Not because amd is the second choice, but because the offers a better value for money and they only get better over time. If for example, I look to someone in my situation but on the green side, 770,cost more than a 280x and performs worst and is starving with 2gb. Then maybe a 970? Again, is not dying, but is slower than a 290x by a good margin, especially in 1440p.

I think that is worth thinking a bit ahead, because a 280x+290x combo cost me 370€ and a similar combo with 770+970 is at minimum, 50€ more for the 280x and 100€ for the 970 maybe?

So now I'm not only faster but I have more money in my pocket and I was able to buy more stuff like bigger ssd, more ram and so on.

So yes, it's definitely worth it to think a bit ahead even when thinking about gpus
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post #2336 of 3674
Quote:
Originally Posted by maltamonk View Post

For a lot of budget minded ppl...yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NaXter24R View Post

I think that is worth thinking a bit ahead, because a 280x+290x combo cost me 370€ and a similar combo with 770+970 is at minimum, 50€ more for the 280x and 100€ for the 970 maybe?

So now I'm not only faster but I have more money in my pocket and I was able to buy more stuff like bigger ssd, more ram and so on.

So yes, it's definitely worth it to think a bit ahead even when thinking about gpus

thumb.gif

I truly wish this mode of thinking wasn't the minority.
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post #2337 of 3674
Here is a cool video on the topic of GPU aging

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post #2338 of 3674
Quote:
Originally Posted by maltamonk View Post

For a lot of budget minded ppl...yes. That's one of the reasons it keeps coming up that recent past gens of amd cards fair better in the long run. The upgrade fever if you will is more of high end market symptom, so many in the lower segments consider longevity in purchase decisions.

If that were the case, I'd expect AMD to have a much higher GPU marketshare.
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post #2339 of 3674
And to make it more clear, I saved up quite a lot of money for my first decent build, and my pc is both my gaming pc and my working pc. When it comes to cpu, I can spend money, no problem, they last at least 4 years and it's a good investment. Gpu tho, those are "old" after one year, and I don't like to spend tons of money on something that after less than a year is considered old and overall, with a much lower price if and when you want to resell it.
And because I'm not afraid of 10fps less when I'm doing 70 and I'm able to move some slide to high instead of ultra, I prefer to save some money. Just that. I don't care if it's green or red, I buy whatever gives me the best price to performance ratio and support for the future. Always remember that the 280x aka 7970 is now 4 and a half years old and it's more than enough for 1080p even with filters and all that stuff. And especially today, it cost almost nothing.

I wish some people stop listening reviewers or some site, there is more than pure performance. And especially people with not loads of money, could get much more if they change their mind.
It's not like "guys, all buy used cards" but more "ok, this gives me 3% less but cost 10% less and historically so this brand seems to get better over time".

Unfortunately, those people do not exist, and if exist, they buy consoles
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post #2340 of 3674
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZealotKi11er View Post

Same thing with HD 7970. No completion from Nvidia.

Not the same thing.

It's 100% up to the underdog to keep pricing in check. If the market leader did it, they would put the underdog out of business within a year. Below is another post I did on another forum.

You need to look at this from an economic and business perspective.

You base launch pricing on initial performance, not future performance and upon launch the 7970 only beat the gtx 580 by 15%. Basing it on future performance requires hindsight so pricing a card based on future performance is just plain stupid.

Additionally, AMD is the value brand and with this comes certain expectation with launches from consumers, or they will wait and not buy your product. What is universally expected for the value brand is they offer superior price to performance. When the brand recognized for their value discards this characteristic and launches their product at a high price. What do you think is likely to happen when the brand with more prestige launches a product with better performance and generally all around better characteristics, particularly in a duopoly?

And this is why much of the price increases are atleast half AMD fault. Launching their product at 550 when it was only performing 15% better than the competition while being the value brand was an incredibly dumb move on their part. There was little possibility, that Nvidia was not going to do better than that at launch. So when this came true, it was not unexpected for Nvidia to start charging more for their midrange. Thus following AMD leads and increasing their price for their midrange is what is expected and is simply business. This is because Nvidia is the more prestigious brand. The brand with the higher good will with the consumer is allowed and is supposed to charge more for their product.

If the prestige brand didn't, the second brand marketshare and margins would get smaller and smaller until they went bankrupt. We got a preview of this effect at 28nm. This is what kind of happened when the gtx 670 launched with similar performance to a 7970 and a 150 dollar lower price. And what happened when the gtx 970 launched vs the 290x with a 220 dollar lower price point. AMD got the crap smacked out of them as far as profit and marketshare go and if this pattern continues, we know what will happen.

In a duopoly, it's up to the value brand to keep the prestige brand price in check. If they try to raise pricing, this give every right for the prestige brand to increase pricing because the floor pricing for a certain level of pricing is determined by what the value brand is willing to sell it for. This is because at equal pricing/performance, the prestige brand will vastly outsell the value brand. This is the right of the prestige brand. Hence, the concession for the prestige brand is they raise their prices to have higher margins, which allows the value brand to continue to exist or make money at lower margins. Thus when AMD raised pricing, Nvidia did as well and they put pricing on one of their products lower than AMD to get the second effect as well.

Lets take AMD brand out of the equation(since this might be distorting your view of this situation) and put up a similar example. Lets pretend Vizio and Samsung were the only two tv makers. Lets say Vizio next year, decided to raise the pricing of their products to a price above samsung because it had slightly better picture quality than the samsung. Samsung releases a tv with even better picture quality, so what do you expect pricing to be like for this tv considering there is no alternative brands out there?

Prestige brands can get away with certain behavior the value brand cannot. Thus AMD raising the price with their entire initial 28nm line is what doomed pricing for the consumer. It doesn't mean AMD is stuck as the value brand.

The only way AMD can raise pricing, is if they launch an absolutely superior product that the competition has no chance of beating within a reasonable time frame. Do a enough of these in a row and a few marketing trick and they can become the premium brand.

If AMD never raised prices, Nvidia wouldn't of had the same chance to so grossly increase the price of their midrange.

Founders edition pricing today is just as greedy as launching the 7970 at 550 dollars. Both charge a small premium over last gens high end. However launching the 7970 at 550 was not only a greedy move, but a stupid one because AMD was not the prestige brand and Nvidia had not played it hand yet which it would be doing shortly. Price high and people will wait when you the value brand.

Founders edition itself is kind of stupid and confusing but the price increase is not. Anyone that wasn't being a fanboy and was analyzing the situation, could predict that AMD was not going to launch a true high end in time for the 1080 launch and real competition for them. And because of this, AMD for the gp1080 launch essentially gave away the high end market for the next 7 months or so. This gave Nvidia free reign to dictate pricing. Because of their brand superiority, 699 and 449 pricing although greedy, was a smart business move, unlike the 7970 launch price.
Edited by tajoh111 - 7/4/16 at 12:59pm
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