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[OC3D] RX480 power bottleneck? - Page 3

post #21 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnek View Post


I agree, instead of binning and throwing away who knows how many chips that fail validation, they probably just slapped on a one-size-fits-all (over)voltage, which seems to have backfired tremendously.

I mean, if by undervolting you gain performance while lowering power draw at the same time, RX 480 could've not only looked better in reviews (decisive lead over 970, very close to stock 980), but there likely wouldn't have been an issue with pulling too much power over the PCIe slot. Imagine how much better the launch could've gone then.

As an aside: Intel had the exact same issue with mobile Haswell CPUs. My 4900MQ was a blast furnace at stock voltage, and it wouldn't even run full turbo but 100 MHz less because it was constantly pushing against its TDP limit. I undervolted by 80mV (yes, 80mV), shaved off 7C, and the thing now runs full turbo all the time. But the real kicker for me, was that the stock voltage was enough to get a stable 4GHz OC on my 4900MQ (default turbo = 3.6 GHz). Intel seriously dun goofed there.

It would have leaded to a more expensive product and would be lower in volume. The real solution would have probably been to lower clock targets and add another 6 pin plug (or an 8 pin plug). While it is not typically the case with small chips, it could be that the variance is much larger than expected (they have very sophisticated models for this).

Then again, AMD has traditionally clocked many of their SKUs to the moon at the expense of power consumption, so it has most likely been a design consideration they made. Many of these factors wouldn't have been noticed by an average user. Except for maybe the high current over the PCI-E bus. That could add significant EMI to other PCI-E and integrated devices, although an average user again probably would not be able to pinpoint the GPU as the cause of that.
post #22 of 55
they run it at loose voltage so that they can save money from binning costs, if they had to find each chip's lowest voltage and bin it accordingly then it'll end up costing too much money and time.
so what they do is simply coarsely bin them by brackets, anything within the bracket will be binned according to that batch's optimum stable voltage.
post #23 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

they run it at loose voltage so that they can save money from binning costs, if they had to find each chip's lowest voltage and bin it accordingly then it'll end up costing too much money and time.
so what they do is simply coarsely bin them by brackets, anything within the bracket will be binned according to that batch's optimum stable voltage.

So in return even the chips that are close to the lower bracket will still have headroom for small OC / undervolting?
I joined this forum in order to learn stuff for RX 480 as it was gathering all the cool information around the internet and discussing it. Now i feel like winning with all this information coming that i was ignorant about. biggrin.gif
Undervolting to get the same performance to stock with lower consumed power and lower output temperatures? or adding an OC to that so you can get the same temperature and power draw as before and get better performance.
Optimization, optimization, optimization.
Edited by slavovid - 7/1/16 at 3:11am
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post #24 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

they run it at loose voltage so that they can save money from binning costs, if they had to find each chip's lowest voltage and bin it accordingly then it'll end up costing too much money and time.
so what they do is simply coarsely bin them by brackets, anything within the bracket will be binned according to that batch's optimum stable voltage.

 

There could be a lot of explanations for this.

 

Firstly, you increase the yield of the product since with a higher voltage more units would meet spec. Also, when a GPU is pushed to its limits in terms of clock target or if the process is immature, the variance in biasing properties of the transistors become larger so you're more likely to find overvolted GPUs.

 

You typically see this with the huge dies because at that point the imperfections vary a lot more (more wires and layers used and naturally more transistors involved). Imagine for example if Intel released a Core i7 with a clock target of 5GHz. A lot of units wouldn't make it and those that do would have a higher spread in VID vs one released at say 3GHz.

 

For small processors the variance is usually much smaller. So I suspect that these units are clocked too high and/or GloFo's 14nm FinFET offerings are having some maturity issues so they need wider margins in terms of voltage.

 

Again, there could be more explanations for this so I might be off here.

post #25 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by NuclearPeace View Post

I bet once people seriously begin to overclock on AIB boards this card is going to go 200w+, which is going to be difficult to cool from a 232mm2 die.

Not all of that will be GPU power. A sizable fraction will be from the VRM and VRAM, the remainder probably won't be greater power/thermal density than what we've been seeing on CPUs for a while.
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoxile View Post

They undervolted their 480 and gained 4.7% performance in games (on avg I guess). According to the poster on anand the 480 hits the power limit and throttles more with default voltage.

Same thing has happened on some portion of cards going back to the 7900 series.

Because of power and thermal limits any excess in voltage beyond what is actually need can result in lower performance unless the power limit is adjusted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnek View Post

I mean, if by undervolting you gain performance while lowering power draw at the same time, RX 480 could've not only looked better in reviews (decisive lead over 970, very close to stock 980), but there likely wouldn't have been an issue with pulling too much power over the PCIe slot. Imagine how much better the launch could've gone then.

They would also run the risk of shipping unstable cards, which could be a major misstep. Some samples will handle an undervolt without issue, but some will certainly become unstable in certain applications.
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnek View Post

AIB partners could do the binning themselves.

They often do and I'd conservatively guess that half the non-reference cards (AMD and NVIDIA) I own aren't completely stable out of the box.

Sapphire, Zotac, and EVGA habitually release pre-OCed parts that aren't stable at defaults, for example.
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post #26 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by slavovid View Post

So in return even the chips that are close to the lower bracket will still have headroom for small OC / undervolting?
I joined this forum in order to learn stuff for RX 480 as it was gathering all the cool information around the internet and discussing it. Now i feel like winning with all this information coming that i was ignorant about. biggrin.gif
Undervolting to get the same performance to stock with lower consumed power and lower output temperatures? or adding an OC to that so you can get the same temperature and power draw as before and get better performance.
Optimization, optimization, optimization.

Not too different then my 7950. Came with a voltage of 1.25v, i can run it at 1.09v at the same clock speed. Ive never tried lower but i bet i could do better.

This makes me wonder how aibs are going to work out their premium cards. Hiw much higher can you price this budget card. I would definitely like to get a card i can undervolt and slightly overclock. Amd seems to always ship with excessively high voltage.
post #27 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryst View Post

Not too different then my 7950. Came with a voltage of 1.25v, i can run it at 1.09v at the same clock speed. Ive never tried lower but i bet i could do better.

This makes me wonder how aibs are going to work out their premium cards. Hiw much higher can you price this budget card. I would definitely like to get a card i can undervolt and slightly overclock. Amd seems to always ship with excessively high voltage.
You bet it can do better:
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post #28 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtcn77 View Post

You bet it can do better:

Depend those crappy sapphire vrm have large vdrop..My dual x do. While my windforce dont... The giga pcb is ways better made just looking at solder joint.
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post #29 of 55
I still think it should have been the rx 470 and clocked at 1-1.1ghz with lower voltage.
Sorry AMD
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Sorry AMD
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post #30 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultracarpet View Post

I still think it should have been the rx 470 and clocked at 1-1.1ghz with lower voltage.
But, what about rx475? AMD gave up on mainstream differentiation. For instance, there wasn't a 370X card. However there will be a 485 card, as the announcement goes without saying by virtue of being the only card out, yet.
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