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[NY Times] First Fatal Self Driving Tesla Crash - Page 16

post #151 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by r31ncarnat3d View Post

I disagree myself. Tesla bears some blame to me because it was incredibly irresponsible for them to release this feature before it was ready. They might have legal cover, but their actions are immensely irresponsible.

They should have known their software is much different from, say, Facebook or Apple. If Facebook pushes out buggy code, people can't post their concert pictures or they can't message their friends through Facebook. It's annoying, but ultimately it's highly unlikely anything of true consequence would happen.

Tesla doesn't have that luxury, and it should have been blatantly obvious to them from the start. If they push out a buggy or imperfect autopilot software, it can (and did) lead to deaths. It doesn't matter what their disclaimer says - they should have known from the start that their autopilot would be abused and misused. It's very common knowledge among anyone working in any technical field, be it software or automobiles or construction, that end users can be abusive or flat out incompetent. You can't engineer something with reasonable limitations, post a disclaimer on those limitations, and expect people to follow it when there are literal lives at stake.

The immediate reaction to the autopilot feature confirms this. Within the first 24 hours, we see people using the feature on roads it was not meant for, people being absolutely distracted behind the wheel of the car and not in a position to regain immediate control, and really people just using the feature in a way that was never intended.

Ultimately if the reports of the man being distracted are true, the majority of the blame lies on him. That said, Tesla does have some blame as well for pushing out an incomplete and possibly buggy feature and expecting users to behave responsibly when both short and long term history shows this is never the case.

Exactly.
Just compare Tesla with BMW or Mercedes which don't allow drivers to take their hands off the steering wheel for more than 15sec or with Volvo which said by 2018 they will have a self driving car and they will take full responsibility for it.
Tesla just launched a software that is not even finishes and all their fans on the internet started to say that they are better than car manufactures that have decades of experience in stuff like this.

Now I see that they say some drivers are idiots, well what a huge surprise it's like this is the first time we see idiot drivers.
Edited by Serios - 7/7/16 at 10:42pm
post #152 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpankyMcFlych View Post

Anecdotes are meaningless, statistics should drive policy. And statistically I bet vehicles with the driver assist are safer then those without, and once there are fully autonomous vehicles they will also be far safer then manually driven vehicles.

Yes errors will occur, unforeseen circumstances will happen, and limitations of technology will cause problems. But assisted driving and autonomous vehicles will still be far superior to human drivers even with theses early limitations and errors. And with each accident or fatality the technology will be improved until we do reach that 99.99% accident free rate.

But all the technology really needs to do to make it worthwhile is do it better then humans. Which isn't a very high bar to clear, and which is probably already done.
I highly doubt it will ever be like this.
post #153 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hueristic View Post

Stupid people shouldn't breed and make more stupid people, it is stupid to let a ai drive for you. conclusion: Darwinism at work. smile.gif

Except it's more stupid to let your meatCPU drive for you once we have something better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serios View Post

I highly doubt it will ever be like this.

The proportion of accidents caused by pilot error is in the high 90s. It is not a high bar that autonomous systems have to beat.

The computer will never be distracted by texts, be drunk, be sleepy, be in a hurry, be recklessly stupid, be impatient and inconsiderate, be clueless, be functionally bad at the mechanics of driving, or any of the other things that cause people to cause accidents. You dramatically overestimate the capability of the general public to pilot a motor vehicle safely.

Sure, some people may think they're the best driver in the world, the safest, the most competent, that a computer will never do a better job. I speak as someone who has never caused an accident, doesn't drive recklessly, doesn't text, doesn't drive drunk, and I STILL know that once they work out the initial kinks the car will do a far better job of driving safely.

To presume otherwise is the height of human hubris.
Edited by Mand12 - 7/7/16 at 9:11am
post #154 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serios View Post

I highly doubt it will ever be like this.

You are completely and totally wrong. They are already safer than we are. The main issue is regulatory at this point.

EDIT:

Just an interesting/sad number to think about.....

Approximately 488 people have died in a traffic accident, caused by human error, since the creation of this thread as of the time of this writing.
Edited by PostalTwinkie - 7/7/16 at 12:00pm
    
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post #155 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie View Post

You are completely and totally wrong. They are already safer than we are. The main issue is regulatory at this point.

EDIT:

Just an interesting/sad number to think about.....

Approximately 488 people have died in a traffic accident, caused by human error, since the creation of this thread as of the time of this writing.

I'm quite confident a computer can't drive like me because I can do stuff a computer can't do.
I can anticipate and I can estimate.
Also I am able most of the time to predict what kind of divers are in the cars that are in front of behind me on on the sides.
I am able to make decisions by just looking at other drivers and anticipate if they are going to let me pass or not, or when I change the lane in not ideal situations I signal and wait 2-3 seconds to see if the driver behind me is going to let me do it.

Have these automated cars been test in crowded European capitals whit small streets and full of reckless and crazy drivers? I don think so. Have you ever been to Greece and see how people drive there for example?
You said 488 people dies but how many accidents have been avoided by human drivers in this time frame? Probably you should multiply that 488 whit at least 100.
I avoided an accident just 6 hours ago when a drivers lost control of his car for a few second and almost hit me.
post #156 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

The computer will never be distracted by texts, be drunk, be sleepy, be in a hurry, be recklessly stupid, be impatient and inconsiderate, be clueless, be functionally bad at the mechanics of driving, or any of the other things that cause people to cause accidents. You dramatically overestimate the capability of the general public to pilot a motor vehicle safely.

So what if the driver in front of you or behind you is a reckless idiot, can the computer figure that out?
I doubt it.
post #157 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serios View Post

I'm quite confident a computer can't drive like me because I can do stuff a computer can't do.
I can anticipate and I can estimate.
Also I am able most of the time to predict what kind of divers are in the cars that are in front of behind me on on the sides.
I am able to make decisions by just looking at other drivers and anticipate if they are going to let me pass or not, or when I change the lane in not ideal situations I signal and wait 2-3 seconds to see if the driver behind me is going to let me do it.

Have these automated cars been test in crowded European capitals whit small streets and full of reckless and crazy drivers? I don think so. Have you ever been to Greece and see how people drive there for example?
You said 488 people dies but how many accidents have been avoided by human drivers in this time frame? Probably you should multiply that 488 whit at least 100.
I avoided an accident just 6 hours ago when a drivers lost control of his car for a few second and almost hit me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Serios View Post

So what if the driver in front of you or behind you is a reckless idiot, can the computer figure that out?
I doubt it.

lachen.gif

Come on, friend, you know your argument has run out of steam when you have to fall back on stating you can "predict" anything.

As someone who has been professionally trained to drive, who has gone through it on both the side of Law Enforcement and sport. Someone who has literally peeled people off roads.....Your driving sucks, just like all our driving when compared to what fully autonomous vehicles can do.

As for "crowded" areas? Yes, yes they have. Google's car has logged over a million miles in some of the most crowded streets.

Ignoring both your and my personal experiences, because frankly they meant squat to the conversation at large, the few self driving cars we have are already multiple factors safer than humans. I am not talking a driver assist technology like Tesla's "Auto-pilot", although it too is far better and safer. I am talking about the few fully autonomous vehicles licensed for use today. They are far safer than humans.
    
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post #158 of 238

These corps should not be using public roads for any kind of testing.

 

Secondly, there are trains and buses and taxis for those who don't want to drive themselves. Autopilot is a fable, because driving is chaos theory.... u can't predict, & there is more to driving than just objects. New public transportation is what this country needs, not 1M autonomous rich people killing others.

post #159 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by formula m View Post

These corps should not be using public roads for any kind of testing.

How else would you like them to test the product? At some point you have to determine how it does in the wild. Same goes for human drivers, there are only so many laps of the abandoned airfield you can do before you need to get out on the road.

So long as strict guidelines are in place, I don't see the problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by formula m View Post

Secondly, there are trains and buses and taxis for those who don't want to drive themselves.

Public transport sucks.

I live in Vancouver, where the public transport is actually decent. Even then intercity is OK, but intracity is practically non-existant. And forget getting out to most suburbs.

The US is just not set up for public transit, the population centres are too dispersed (suburbs) to make it viable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by formula m View Post

Autopilot is a fable, because driving is chaos theory.... u can't predict, & there is more to driving than just objects.

Tell that to Google, who have driven over 1.5 million miles autonomously.
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post #160 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serios View Post


I'm quite confident a computer can't drive like me because I can do stuff a computer can't do.
I can anticipate and I can estimate.
Also I am able most of the time to predict what kind of divers are in the cars that are in front of behind me on on the sides.
I am able to make decisions by just looking at other drivers and anticipate if they are going to let me pass or not, or when I change the lane in not ideal situations I signal and wait 2-3 seconds to see if the driver behind me is going to let me do it.

Have these automated cars been test in crowded European capitals whit small streets and full of reckless and crazy drivers? I don think so. Have you ever been to Greece and see how people drive there for example?
You said 488 people dies but how many accidents have been avoided by human drivers in this time frame? Probably you should multiply that 488 whit at least 100.
I avoided an accident just 6 hours ago when a drivers lost control of his car for a few second and almost hit me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serios View Post

So what if the driver in front of you or behind you is a reckless idiot, can the computer figure that out?
I doubt it.

dood you cannot be serios.

but oh well, you'll be one of those with an insurance premium because you refuse to let a robot drive you around. rolleyes.gif
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