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[NY Times] First Fatal Self Driving Tesla Crash - Page 3

post #21 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by r31ncarnat3d View Post

I disagree myself. Tesla bears some blame to me because it was incredibly irresponsible for them to release this feature before it was ready. They might have legal cover, but their actions are immensely irresponsible.

They should have known their software is much different from, say, Facebook or Apple. If Facebook pushes out buggy code, people can't post their concert pictures or they can't message their friends through Facebook. It's annoying, but ultimately it's highly unlikely anything of true consequence would happen.

Tesla doesn't have that luxury, and it should have been blatantly obvious to them from the start. If they push out a buggy or imperfect autopilot software, it can (and did) lead to deaths. It doesn't matter what their disclaimer says - they should have known from the start that their autopilot would be abused and misused. It's very common knowledge among anyone working in any technical field, be it software or automobiles or construction, that end users can be abusive or flat out incompetent. You can't engineer something with reasonable limitations, post a disclaimer on those limitations, and expect people to follow it when there are literal lives at stake.

The immediate reaction to the autopilot feature confirms this. Within the first 24 hours, we see people using the feature on roads it was not meant for, people being absolutely distracted behind the wheel of the car and not in a position to regain immediate control, and really people just using the feature in a way that was never intended.

Ultimately if the reports of the man being distracted are true, the majority of the blame lies on him. That said, Tesla does have some blame as well for pushing out an incomplete and possibly buggy feature and expecting users to behave responsibly when both short and long term history shows this is never the case.

I Disagree

cars in itself is inherently dangerous and the operation of one should be treated with great care.

Just because a car has a auto pilot mode does not give the end user or LICENSED driver the right to take his/her hands off the wheel. That responsibility falls on the driver and their stupidity. Trying to justify a company product for the stupidity of people is wrong in itself.

If we lived like everyone is incompetent there would be no advancement in the world. we would walk everywhere not have electricity and be eating everything raw. umm fire bad.....

That person's death though tragic was his own fault, he should not have had his hands off the wheel, just like people who are so absorbed in their phones that they walk out into the street...
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post #22 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by wooshna View Post

I Disagree

cars in itself is inherently dangerous and the operation of one should be treated with great care.

Just because a car has a auto pilot mode does not give the end user or LICENSED driver the right to take his/her hands off the wheel. That responsibility falls on the driver and their stupidity. Trying to justify a company product for the stupidity of people is wrong in itself.

If we lived like everyone is incompetent there would be no advancement in the world. we would walk everywhere not have electricity and be eating everything raw. umm fire bad.....

That person's death though tragic was his own fault, he should not have had his hands off the wheel, just like people who are so absorbed in their phones that they walk out into the street...

I never argued that Tesla is entirely to blame, just that they aren't blameless.

To me, the driver has the overwhelming majority of the blame. That said, Tesla isn't blameless and they shouldn't have pushed out incomplete software especially when they should have known that users would do exactly what this guy did.

And I also disagree with your assessment on "liv[ing] like everyone is incompetent" - overengineering for safety is an industry norm, especially in fields that directly impact lives. It's why elevators can lift much more than the 450lb Max Load signs they have and why cars disable touch input on their GPS or bluetooth phone interfaces when the car is in motion. You can still progress technology while reasonably addressing terrible end user behavior, which Tesla failed to do.
Edited by r31ncarnat3d - 7/2/16 at 10:47am
post #23 of 238
Right now the Tesla AP is really a glorified cruise control w/ lane assistance. I know exactly what it does, but it requires you to be alert and keep your hands on the wheel at all times. It's not a true Auto Pilot yet.

That said, I have seen 3 major factors discussed on the Tesla Motors Reddit.

1. Woman said she was going 85MPH and was passed by the Tesla driver.
2. He was (IIRC) driving uphill into a birght full sun, and likely didn't see the white trailer until it was too late for either him or the car to do anything.
3. Someone (truck driver I think?) said that a portable DVD player in the trail of debris was playing a Harry Potter movie, as far as I know it's not confirmed by FHP, although FHP did say they found it they didn't say anything about a movie playing after the crash.

The Tesla blog made a post about this which I think is worth reading: https://www.teslamotors.com/blog/tragic-loss

Awful outcome. frown.gif
Edited by Halo_003 - 7/2/16 at 10:55am
post #24 of 238
They shouldn't be on the road as "autonomous" vehicles yet, in my opinion. These are exactly the kinds of issues I expected, because there are just certain things that only a conscious mind can discern. Will it slam on the breaks when snow falls off the vehicle in front of it? Can it differentiate between soft, non-threatening objects and legitimate road hazards? Does it know what areas will be have black ice? When to watch for deer?

I know there are a lot of retarded people on the road who can't do any of that either, and that might make the case that these are statistically "safer", but I'm not a statistical probability. I'm not something to be quantified. It's tiring, constantly hearing this world of individuals and their wills being referred to as variables to be solved out. Yes, I know I'm being a bit proactive in feeling the right to drive is under threat, but we all know how things like this go. Give it 75 years; if it's not outright illegal, it'll be phased out by merciless consequences for traffic offences, fear-mongering, absurd insurance policies, excessive policing, and stringent, expensive licensing expenses.. All backed by statistical prejudice, the same way my insurance policy currently charges me excessive amounts for being male and driving a coupe.
Edited by Mookster - 7/2/16 at 10:54am
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post #25 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halo_003 View Post

Right now the Tesla AP is really a glorified cruise control w/ lane assistance. I know exactly what it does, but it requires you to be alert and keep your hands on the wheel at all times. It's not a true Auto Pilot yet.

Close, but not quite. Yes, it's a lot of the features that other cars have available now, adaptive cruise, ultrasonic sensors and lane cameras, but this one is also network connected and gps assisted. I think that's a massive addition to the feature set as none else has it available to the public yet. This will be very cool in the near future, especially when all of the cars on the road will be on the same network.
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post #26 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mookster View Post

They shouldn't be on the road as "autonomous" vehicles yet, in my opinion. These are exactly the kinds of issues I expected, because there are just certain things that only a conscious mind can discern. Will it slam on the breaks when snow falls off the vehicle in front of it? Can it differentiate between soft, non-threatening objects and legitimate road hazards? Does it know what areas will be have black ice? When to watch for deer?



I think the answer is yes to most of those points, it in fact can. Look up the vehicles that have sign recognition integrated or the infrared cameras with object (pedestrian, animal) detection.
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post #27 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by axiumone View Post

Close, but not quite. Yes, it's a lot of the features that other cars have available now, adaptive cruise, ultrasonic sensors and lane cameras, but this one is also network connected and gps assisted. I think that's a massive addition to the feature set as none else has it available to the public yet. This will be very cool in the near future, especially when all of the cars on the road will be on the same network.

No I know what it is and what the features are, I was just saying that right now it really functions like cruise control/lane assist because it requires you to be alert and on the wheel. That's what I meant when I said it's not a true Auto Pilot yet. AP fully fleshed out will be super cool, a Model S is actually the car I intend to get in a couple years after college is all over. thumb.gif
Edited by Halo_003 - 7/2/16 at 11:07am
post #28 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halo_003 View Post

No I know what it is and what the features are, I was just saying that right now it really functions like cruise control/lane assist because it requires you to be alert and on the wheel. That's what I meant when I said it's not a true Auto Pilot yet. It is super cool, a Model S is actually the car I intend to get in a couple years after college is all over. thumb.gif

Ah, yes, that makes sense. Yeah, you still have to be alert and attentive.
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post #29 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by motoray View Post

No matter how good this tech becomes i will never own a vehicle with this crap.

I would trust a robot car more than a person when it comes to driving.
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post #30 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSCoder4ever View Post

I would trust a robot car more than a person when it comes to driving, and safely.

Exactly right. As a motorcyclist, this makes me very happy. I'm pretty sure roads full of robots will be much safer.
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