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[NY Times] First Fatal Self Driving Tesla Crash - Page 23

post #221 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy9000 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post


My take on this matter is very simple: Tesla should be barred from including this feature on their cars and should be criminally prosecuted for doing so up to now and be held responsible for the accidents that happen.

How many miles have been driven with autopilot? What if it turns out to be safer then if people had been driving?

There are still going to be accidents with automated driving, there's just going to be less of them.


Is that your approach to product development? Use paying customers as guinea pigs to test what is admitted by Tesla to be a "Beta" feature that can put people in danger - not only the drivers, but the other occupants, all the other drivers around and pedestrians to only afterwards draw the conclusion if it's safer or not?

The whole point of my post is that this is the wrong way to do things. The right way is to have experienced professionals, hired by Tesla, to do those miles behind the wheel, not regular clients. And then draw the conclusions. And then, if they are favourable, get the product / feature out of Beta status and release it as a standards compliant feature to regular customers. But no, that is too expensive and to get ahead of the competition anything goes these days, it seems.

I'm under no illusion that any piece of software / feature will be 100% bug free, it's useless to try to chase absolute perfection, there will always be a risk with anything we do, that is not the point because that much is obvious. The point is that the "Beta" moniker exists for a reason, there is a meaning behind it and there is also a meaning behind having passed rigorous and extensive tests in the hands of professionals and there is no circumstance where the governing agencies should be complacent with any manufacturer including such kind of Beta features in the critical operation of vehicles that can put human lives at risk.

And this may sound patronising, but when the industry says that cars should beep incessantly if you didn't fasten your seatbelt, why on earth is putting a Beta Autopilot feature that isn't even fully autonomous (but seems like it) in a road car acceptable?

It's even worse in this case, because if people may do stupid things, they will even more so in this case because the whole premise of the feature is misleading and, to be frank, intellectually dishonest. Tesla is putting a totally unfair moral dilemma on its customers. Giving them an optional ability, expecting feedback and telemetry, not accepting responsibility (it's "Beta"), while pretending that after several minutes of semi-autonomous driving the person behind the wheel has any training to be quick to react if and when the car misbehaves. As I said, you'd expect that from a certified driving instructor or a car engineer, not a regular customer. I can't emphasise how irresponsible Tesla is for including this feature in their cars.
Edited by tpi2007 - 7/13/16 at 3:33am
 
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post #222 of 238
The amount of blind faith people are putting in this technology in this thread is staggering. I personally have driven the past twenty years without a single accident yet my driving is lumped in with "humanity" as somehow substandard compared to these beta systems which have proven to be not quite so infallible. Oh, but progress, I forgot... rolleyes.gif
post #223 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post

The amount of blind faith people are putting in this technology in this thread is staggering. I personally have driven the past twenty years without a single accident yet my driving is lumped in with "humanity" as somehow substandard compared to these beta systems which have proven to be not quite so infallible. Oh, but progress, I forgot... rolleyes.gif

It isn't blind faith. I don't trust Tesla's implementation. It is the full AI and not just a specific companies, the concept as a whole and the capabilities are what is looked at. I am not saying everyone is a bad driver all the time, but no human compares to a computer at these simple tasks. The field of vision and its ability to process so much information at once makes it the clear choice.

And that is only the safety premise. The AI has more implications than just safety. I can see us get to the point where you don't even own cars. There are just hubs around the city with cars that you can go on your phone and schedule to have you picked up and dropped off. The emissions savings and just the resources we would save not needing as many cars to be built would be enormous.
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post #224 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

My take on this matter is very simple: Tesla should be barred from including this feature on their cars and should be criminally prosecuted for doing so up to now and be held responsible for the accidents that happen.
I think this is an incredibly myopic way of seeing the whole situation. Do you blame McDonald's for making people fat? Do you also believe that robotic surgery is a criminal act? That's in beta, too.

If you have a seizure while driving, should the EMT's drag you out of the car and beat you for endangering others?

Maybe we should execute the executives of all these automakers while you're at it? Since they are criminals and all. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lane_departure_warning_system#Vehicles

Maybe we should go back to horses? Don't let go of the reigns while you're riding, though! Otherwise you'll be "utterly irresponsible"

I honestly don't understand how OCN of all places can have such Luddites.
post #225 of 238
Beta is just a word, brakes were being beta tested by drivers on the roads at some point, ditto seat belts, ABS, disc brakes, ect ect ect. They just didn't call it beta testing back then. Googles car is being beta tested now. They're just carefully avoiding calling it that.

Anecdotes don't matter, statistics do. Look at the statistics. If the system increases accidents then there is obviously something wrong with it. If the system reduces accidents then it's obviously of benefit.
post #226 of 238
The bigger issue here is the decision making software in autonomous vehicles. If an serious accident is imminent and the software has to select one of four options which does it take 1) crash into the 18 wheeler 2) crash into the pedestrian (drinking from a wine bottle) on the sidewalk 3) crash into the mother and child on the sidewalk or 4) drive you over a cliff (potentially killing the occupants of the vehicle)? Should society determine the outcome or should vehicle manufacturers?
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post #227 of 238
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Originally Posted by DaFaRsHeR View Post

The bigger issue here is the decision making software in autonomous vehicles. If an serious accident is imminent and the software has to select one of four options which does it take 1) crash into the 18 wheeler 2) crash into the pedestrian (drinking from a wine bottle) on the sidewalk 3) crash into the mother and child on the sidewalk or 4) drive you over a cliff (potentially killing the occupants of the vehicle)? Should society determine the outcome or should vehicle manufacturers?

Well AI would more easily prevent a serious accident from happening to begin with. If everyone followed assured clear distance accidents would be greatly minimized. With AI it can be enforced. Even if the person in front of you slammed on their brakes, even with no clear sight of any obstruction, just on a whim or to be a jerk, you should be able to stop in time to not hit them.

However, even if that was the scenario, I would rather have a predetermined lesser outcome. If slamming into the 18 wheeler is the best option, i would rather have that happen all the time. For a human you will get all different outcomes. Who makes that decision is not as important as making sure it is the option with the highest preservation of life.
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post #228 of 238
^This.
And we don't really need to think the car itself as AI, but the collective system of autonomous cars will be making intelligent decisions & choices that will streamline the human (& good) transportation process. There is no need for a sentient AI super-being to do that, our current technology is far closer than many think to achieve it.

Now, accidents occur and will keep occurring.
Quote:
There were 29,989 fatal motor vehicle crashes in the United States in 2014 in which 32,675 deaths occurred. This resulted in 10.2 deaths per 100,000 people and 1.08 deaths per 100 million vehicle miles traveled.

- Insurance Institute for Highway Safety

Musk called it a statistical inevitability, and I agree. According to Tesla's press report, Tesla models travelled 130M miles before the 1st fatality, so it already surpasses the statistical probability of a fatal crash should people were driving. How much press did the 1st fatality in a Tesla car get when its driver drove it off a cliff ? Took what? A few thousand miles? 1 Million? Even if it was the 1st drive, the 1st owner took on a documented to be very capable car like the Model S, we would just roll our eyes and say he/she was an "idiot"...

Now the machine fails to save a life, and we all judge the situation as "easily avoidable", as if thousands of these kind of things don't happen with the steering wheel in hands of human drivers daily...

I don't advocate that Tesla did not perhaps rush the Autopilot program to end users...maybe they did and there are things they should have ironed out fist...maybe in hardware / sensor / camera level, maybe in software, or maybe both.

But stop talking about humans having unparalleled driving skills that machines cannot beat ... they beat the best in Go ffs, and the vast majority of drivers don't use half an ounce of the tons of brainpower it takes to play that crap. We are easily surpassed by purposed built machines in too many fields...from vibrators in sex, to forklifts in strength, and now gradually with computers in all mundane "intellectual" tasks. Learn to live with the fact.
Still its not the time to play Pokemon GO behind the steering wheel yet!
Edited by pcfoo - 7/13/16 at 10:03am
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post #229 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpankyMcFlych View Post

Beta is just a word, brakes were being beta tested by drivers on the roads at some point, ditto seat belts, ABS, disc brakes, ect ect ect. They just didn't call it beta testing back then. Googles car is being beta tested now. They're just carefully avoiding calling it that.

Statistics is also just a word, but seems to have great importance to you. Your post makes it sound like all automotive hardware is just tossed on the vehicles and thrown out to the public to see how it works. That is disingenuous at best. Don't you know about the massive R&D performed by car manufacturers, testing to destruction, etc...

Whereas beta testing (just a series of words) is throwing it out to a large group and working out the bugs. Might have been a bad idea in the case of Tesla autopilot.
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post #230 of 238
This isn't close to the first time that car companies have put out products on the road that were poorly designed, lacking in quality, or both. Ford Pinto anyone?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyson Poindexter View Post

I think this is an incredibly myopic way of seeing the whole situation. Do you blame McDonald's for making people fat?

This may be a little off topic but yeah I think McDonalds has at least some responsibility when it comes to making people fat. While I would say that consumers still are mostly responsible for their own health, McDonalds and a lot of fast food chains pump pretty much every food item with sugar; even with things that you would least expect such as stuff like salads sans dressing and sandwich wraps. Sugar, especially in its refined white form is an incredibly addictive substance and it works like a lot of illegal drugs by causing a surge of dopamine.

This plays into tpi2007's argument. Tesla is advertising this feature with words such as "autopilot" and it performs generally as a method of self driving. If human response, for the most part, isn't required of the occupant then they are going to tune out and either go to sleep or do other tasks. It's the same thing as fidgeting or hitting up Facebook during a boring lecture. However, when things go wrong, Tesla suddenly absolves itself of all responsibility by hiding itself behind a bunch of disclaimers, legalese, and the "beta" moniker.

While it's true that the the driver or the consumer in the McDondald's scenario is responsible for their own vehicle's behavior and personal health, its also to important to consider that in both cases that Tesla and McDonalds are creating situations that are actively undermining that, and then saying that they are faultess when something goes wrong.
Edited by NuclearPeace - 7/13/16 at 12:09pm
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