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post #121 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

So, because they're not nearly the same thing, you support cheaters and their righteous fight against the tyranny of evil corporations.

Why do you support cheaters?
No. I support the notion of a reasonable, tempered, fair judicial process with consequences that fit the crime. Second to that, in this regard, I support the individuals within the subgroup of "cheaters" that are not cheating for commerce. I do that because this corporate entity nonchalantly uses it's massive resources to hire representatives that are highly skilled at manipulating what is intended to be a reasonable, tempered, fair judicial process with consequences that fit the crime.

Before we even get the case under way, we have a serious problem. A multi-billion dollar commercial entity is using it's commercial enterprise to seek criminal charges against a non-commercial free individual for commercial reasons. Commercial intents, versus basic human freedoms. Alright, well, is the free individual intent aimed solely at hurting the commercial endeavors of the commercial entity? No. Is it causing the damage? Yes, but only in two ways: disturbing the experience of a limited group of customers who are not cheating, and by (through free non-commercial endeavors) sharing the capability to cheat with other non-commercial individuals in a way other than sharing the capability of learning to modify code. Although it needs to be said, the act of sharing this executable code is not what results in more prolific damage to the user experience of non-cheaters. It is actually the will of other free individuals to cheat, that creates this. Therefor, the damage caused is more accurately attributed to all the individuals who are cheating, and not the individual who created the cheat program. Creating cheat programs requires - access to code in memory, knowledge of coding language, ownership of necessary hardware. These are not commercial paraphernalia or skills unless you can prove intent.

Without an intent for commercial enterprise, I see absolutely no grounds to charge an individual for commercial damages that are not directly the result of his own individual actions. Individuals who participate in cheating to create the kind of widespread damage that Blizzard is complaining about, are actually made up of an enormous group of equally responsible free individuals pursuing their own interests. To charge one of these people for having greater means than the others to create the cheat, does not discount the fact that the act of cheating is the only thing that creates commercial damages.

Copyright is the charge that they fall back on, if the court is too reasonable to allow them to charge one individual for damages that occur as a result of hundreds of thousands of cheaters.

When they get into copyright law, things get far more ambiguous. Copyright protects only the original expression of ideas, and not the underlying ideas themselves. We have Blizzard who is claiming copyright infringement over modification of their original expression of this game, and yet games are interperative pieces where the consumer is an active participant in creating the experience.

Not ironically, the consumer base is also the hacker or cheater, trying to create their own experience within the developer's original expression. Cheating is not a desire original to the hacker. The threat from cheating is actually inherent to free human desire, as can be proven by the actual problems caused by hacking: widespread cheating. In most cases, the problem only presents itself when a large portion of the user base begins cheating.

You have a model based on shared expression of an idea between the copyright holder, and the licensed user. You have a significant portion of licensed users seeking to express their version of the experience in a way that disrupts the experience of others.

You don't have a crime. You have cheaters. Undesirable, yes. Criminal? Only if you can prove intent to engage in or disrupt commerce, and I'm not seeing proof of intent.

So, no. I don't "side with cheaters". I side with justice, and cheating makes no bloody sense as a criminal charge.
Edited by Mookster - 7/13/16 at 4:10pm
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post #122 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mookster View Post


When you're doing it for profit, you're gaining profit to defend yourself. That gets you into the realm of business, which is supposed to be regulatory rather than criminal law.

Criminal cases against people as if people are equal to corporate entities, is wrong. Criminal cases against people in commerce is only supposed to result in charges if you can prove intent to have commercial enterprise. When people are not doing this for a profit there are no grounds for copyright infringement, and no grounds for $250,000 charges against a mere individual.

The public is behind Blizzard because they don't understand how this divergence effects them. A person in commerce is different. I don't know when people stopped caring about these things.

Still trying to figure out if u are joking, or confused..?

 

Blizzard is not going after a person.. so why do you keep being them up in the litigation? They are going after the people (ie websites/gangs) selling their hacks to thousands of people. These are not innocent people, but enterprising parasite that lives off other peoples fair play experience.

post #123 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mookster View Post


No. I support the notion of a reasonable, tempered, fair judicial process with consequences that fit the crime. Second to that, in this regard, I support the individuals within the subgroup of "cheaters" that are not cheating for commerce. I do that because this corporate entity nonchalantly uses it's massive resources to hire representatives that are highly skilled at manipulating what is intended to be a reasonable, tempered, fair judicial process with consequences that fit the crime.

Before we even get the case under way, we have a serious problem. A multi-billion dollar commercial entity is using it's commercial enterprise to seek criminal charges against a non-commercial free individual for commercial reasons. Commercial intents, versus basic human freedoms. Alright, well, is the free individual intent aimed solely at hurting the commercial endeavors of the commercial entity? No. Is it causing the damage? Yes, but only in two ways: disturbing the experience of a limited group of customers who are not cheating, and by (through free non-commercial endeavors) sharing the capability to cheat with other non-commercial individuals in a way other than sharing the capability of learning to modify code. Although it needs to be said, the act of sharing this executable code is not what results in more prolific damage to the user experience of non-cheaters. It is actually the will of other free individuals to cheat, that creates this. Therefor, the damage caused is more accurately attributed to all the individuals who are cheating, and not the individual who created the cheat program. Creating cheat programs requires - access to code in memory, knowledge of coding language, ownership of necessary hardware. These are not commercial paraphernalia or skills unless you can prove intent.

Without an intent for commercial enterprise, I see absolutely no grounds to charge an individual for commercial damages that are not directly the result of his own individual actions. Individuals who participate in cheating to create the kind of widespread damage that Blizzard is complaining about, are actually made up of an enormous group of equally responsible free individuals pursuing their own interests. To charge one of these people for having greater means than the others to create the cheat, does not discount the fact that the act of cheating is the only thing that creates commercial damages.

Copyright is the charge that they fall back on, if the court is too reasonable to allow them to charge one individual for damages that occur as a result of hundreds of thousands of cheaters.

When they get into copyright law, things get far more ambiguous. Copyright protects only the original expression of ideas, and not the underlying ideas themselves. We have Blizzard who is claiming copyright infringement over modification of their original expression of this game, and yet games are interperative pieces where the consumer is an active participant in creating the experience.

Not ironically, the consumer base is also the hacker or cheater, trying to create their own experience within the developer's original expression. Cheating is not a desire original to the hacker. The threat from cheating is actually inherent to free human desire, as can be proven by the actual problems caused by hacking: widespread cheating. In most cases, the problem only presents itself when a large portion of the user base begins cheating.

You have a model based on shared expression of an idea between the copyright holder, and the licensed user. You have a significant portion of licensed users seeking to express their version of the experience in a way that disrupts the experience of others.

You don't have a crime. You have cheaters. Undesirable, yes. Criminal? Only if you can prove intent to engage in or disrupt commerce, and I'm not seeing proof of intent.

So, no. I don't "side with cheaters". I side with justice, and cheating makes no bloody sense as a criminal charge.

 

Dude, you are talking about cheaters, blizzard is going after hackers who sell the software that cheaters buy. Cheaters already have a punishment, their accounts get banned.

post #124 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by formula m View Post

Dude, you are talking about cheaters, blizzard is going after hackers who sell the software that cheaters buy. Cheaters already have a punishment, their accounts get banned.
That entire post consisted of differentiating between commercial endeavors and personal endeavors.
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post #125 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mookster View Post

No. I support the notion of a reasonable, tempered, fair judicial process with consequences that fit the crime. Second to that, in this regard, I support the individuals within the subgroup of "cheaters" that are not cheating for commerce.

Why do you want to ruin my game?
post #126 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mookster View Post

No. I support the notion of a reasonable, tempered, fair judicial process with consequences that fit the crime. Second to that, in this regard, I support the individuals within the subgroup of "cheaters" that are not cheating for commerce.

Why do you want to ruin my game?

I actually checked his post to see how out of context that was. The original was worse.

Supports cheating, which only harms other players, because the company that made the game did a no-no. Just... wow. All credibility gone, that was a completely out of touch line of thinking. So much for protecting the normal people. headscratch.gif


Seriously though, in real life, you get punished for cheating. All the time. Why should it be different because it's a computer game instead of some lame sport?
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post #127 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mookster View Post

Identity theft and cheating are not nearly the same thing. Why is everyone an extremist these days? I don't get it.

As, so because gaming is a rather "trivial" matter it should be judged differently even if it is equally destructive in terms of monetary damage?

Developing anti-cheat software and maintaining staff dedicated to that purpose, as well as maintaining staff for appropriating punishment regarding 3rd-party software costs a lot of money. In many cases, more money than petty identity theft. Attacking an argument by calling it "extremist" is silly. Why is everyone so silly these days? I don't get it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mookster View Post

No. I support the notion of a reasonable, tempered, fair judicial process with consequences that fit the crime. Second to that, in this regard, I support the individuals within the subgroup of "cheaters" that are not cheating for commerce. I do that because this corporate entity nonchalantly uses it's massive resources to hire representatives that are highly skilled at manipulating what is intended to be a reasonable, tempered, fair judicial process with consequences that fit the crime.

Before we even get the case under way, we have a serious problem. A multi-billion dollar commercial entity is using it's commercial enterprise to seek criminal charges against a non-commercial free individual for commercial reasons. Commercial intents, versus basic human freedoms. Alright, well, is the free individual intent aimed solely at hurting the commercial endeavors of the commercial entity? No. Is it causing the damage? Yes, but only in two ways: disturbing the experience of a limited group of customers who are not cheating, and by (through free non-commercial endeavors) sharing the capability to cheat with other non-commercial individuals in a way other than sharing the capability of learning to modify code. Although it needs to be said, the act of sharing this executable code is not what results in more prolific damage to the user experience of non-cheaters. It is actually the will of other free individuals to cheat, that creates this. Therefor, the damage caused is more accurately attributed to all the individuals who are cheating, and not the individual who created the cheat program. Creating cheat programs requires - access to code in memory, knowledge of coding language, ownership of necessary hardware. These are not commercial paraphernalia or skills unless you can prove intent.

3rd part cheating costs a lot of money for these companies. It's not "ridiculous" in any way. Just like chasing state-sponsored or organized identity theft is not "ridiculous". Developing malware for identity theft, for the purpose of financial gain carries heavy punishment. Prison time and fines. Petty identity theft? Not nearly as heavy, though the American "legal" system is incredibly messed up. With some getting unjustifiably heavy punishments, and others getting an equally ridiculous light punishment or none at all.

Divorce civil matters being a prime example of "Femi-Nazi" justice.

But that's not what people want. People don't want to punish cheat users anymore that anyone wants to punish drug-users. Rehabilitation, in this case, game bans is more than enough. But providers, those who maliciously develop these for the end-user, and yes maliciously because it is in fact malicious. There is no noble goal for these cheat providers other than monetary gain at the expensive of those who provide entertainment, and those who enjoy it. There should be fines and jail time. It's not harmless especially when there's money and competitive integrity in eSports on the line.

Denying that there is a need to bring these "providers" into the legal system is a denial that there is damage being caused by these individuals who ARE in fact providing 3rd part software with commercial intents. Commercial intents that hurt the interests of another commercial entity outside the system. It's not wrong when CSGO is taking away League of Legends revenue because it appeals better to gamers. It is wrong when it does so because League of Legends has a huge hacking problem that makes it unplayable. In that case, I would have no problems with seeing these "providers" sued into oblivion by Riot.


Quote:
Without an intent for commercial enterprise, I see absolutely no grounds to charge an individual for commercial damages that are not directly the result of his own individual actions. Individuals who participate in cheating to create the kind of widespread damage that Blizzard is complaining about, are actually made up of an enormous group of equally responsible free individuals pursuing their own interests. To charge one of these people for having greater means than the others to create the cheat, does not discount the fact that the act of cheating is the only thing that creates commercial damages.

Copyright is the charge that they fall back on, if the court is too reasonable to allow them to charge one individual for damages that occur as a result of hundreds of thousands of cheaters.

When they get into copyright law, things get far more ambiguous. Copyright protects only the original expression of ideas, and not the underlying ideas themselves. We have Blizzard who is claiming copyright infringement over modification of their original expression of this game, and yet games are interperative pieces where the consumer is an active participant in creating the experience.

Not ironically, the consumer base is also the hacker or cheater, trying to create their own experience within the developer's original expression. Cheating is not a desire original to the hacker. The threat from cheating is actually inherent to free human desire, as can be proven by the actual problems caused by hacking: widespread cheating. In most cases, the problem only presents itself when a large portion of the user base begins cheating.

You have a model based on shared expression of an idea between the copyright holder, and the licensed user. You have a significant portion of licensed users seeking to express their version of the experience in a way that disrupts the experience of others.

You don't have a crime. You have cheaters. Undesirable, yes. Criminal? Only if you can prove intent to engage in or disrupt commerce, and I'm not seeing proof of intent.

So, no. I don't "side with cheaters". I side with justice, and cheating makes no bloody sense as a criminal charge.

Honestly your whole response reeks with dramatization and romanticism of the legal code, liberty, and the hacking culture. There is nothing pretty about the hacking culture. There are unique, interesting, and truly good people within it, but the culture that's defined as "hacking" today engages in pretty awful and disgusting things for the most part. Hacking games included. There is nothing glorious about it, nor is there anything admirable in it. Making hacks for the sake of making money and ******* with people's enjoyment of the game earns no sympathy from me.

Nobody is asking for modifying code to be illegal. It becomes illegal when you purposely write code to screw with a developer's game, then release it for money, then ruin other people's appreciation of a product. That's where there is a clear difference between truly artistic and selfless people that create mods, and the ugly side of those who make aimlocks and ESP. There is no comparison.

Now I do like your other criticisms of the justice system. Many of which I share myself. I don't expect a superior or supreme State court in any state to truly appreciate or understand these intricacies and differences. Most judges, juries, and so on are far too dense for it. Quite frankly 95% of them are fossils who can't understand why playing violent video games doesn't make you a psychopath. In that vein, the prison and legal system in America is incredibly lacking. It doesn't have much ground for nuance and it doesn't serve the purpose or rehabilitating anyone.

But it doesn't mean that hacking is harmless or petty.
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post #128 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by HanSomPa View Post

As, so because gaming is a rather "trivial" matter it should be judged differently even if it is equally destructive in terms of monetary damage?

Developing anti-cheat software and maintaining staff dedicated to that purpose, as well as maintaining staff for appropriating punishment regarding 3rd-party software costs a lot of money. In many cases, more money than petty identity theft. Attacking an argument by calling it "extremist" is silly. Why is everyone so silly these days? I don't get it.
3rd part cheating costs a lot of money for these companies. It's not "ridiculous" in any way. Just like chasing state-sponsored or organized identity theft is not "ridiculous". Developing malware for identity theft, for the purpose of financial gain carries heavy punishment. Prison time and fines. Petty identity theft? Not nearly as heavy, though the American "legal" system is incredibly messed up. With some getting unjustifiably heavy punishments, and others getting an equally ridiculous light punishment or none at all.

Divorce civil matters being a prime example of "Femi-Nazi" justice.

But that's not what people want. People don't want to punish cheat users anymore that anyone wants to punish drug-users. Rehabilitation, in this case, game bans is more than enough. But providers, those who maliciously develop these for the end-user, and yes maliciously because it is in fact malicious. There is no noble goal for these cheat providers other than monetary gain at the expensive of those who provide entertainment, and those who enjoy it. There should be fines and jail time. It's not harmless especially when there's money and competitive integrity in eSports on the line.

Denying that there is a need to bring these "providers" into the legal system is a denial that there is damage being caused by these individuals who ARE in fact providing 3rd part software with commercial intents. Commercial intents that hurt the interests of another commercial entity outside the system. It's not wrong when CSGO is taking away League of Legends revenue because it appeals better to gamers. It is wrong when it does so because League of Legends has a huge hacking problem that makes it unplayable. In that case, I would have no problems with seeing these "providers" sued into oblivion by Riot.
Honestly your whole response reeks with dramatization and romanticism of the legal code, liberty, and the hacking culture. There is nothing pretty about the hacking culture. There are unique, interesting, and truly good people within it, but the culture that's defined as "hacking" today engages in pretty awful and disgusting things for the most part. Hacking games included. There is nothing glorious about it, nor is there anything admirable in it. Making hacks for the sake of making money and ******* with people's enjoyment of the game earns no sympathy from me.

Nobody is asking for modifying code to be illegal. It becomes illegal when you purposely write code to screw with a developer's game, then release it for money, then ruin other people's appreciation of a product. That's where there is a clear difference between truly artistic and selfless people that create mods, and the ugly side of those who make aimlocks and ESP. There is no comparison.

Now I do like your other criticisms of the justice system. Many of which I share myself. I don't expect a superior or supreme State court in any state to truly appreciate or understand these intricacies and differences. Most judges, juries, and so on are far too dense for it. Quite frankly 95% of them are fossils who can't understand why playing violent video games doesn't make you a psychopath. In that vein, the prison and legal system in America is incredibly lacking. It doesn't have much ground for nuance and it doesn't serve the purpose or rehabilitating anyone.

But it doesn't mean that hacking is harmless or petty.

Developers that write applications to cheat in games make money. Developers that write code to detect cheaters make money. Look at that, job creation baby.
Quote:
People don't want to punish cheat users anymore that anyone wants to punish drug-users.

The private prison industry begs to differ. More bodies = more profit.
post #129 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by xxdarkreap3rxx View Post

Developers that write applications to cheat in games make money. Developers that write code to detect cheaters make money. Look at that, job creation baby.

For a developer that actually makes the game it's only a revenue loss. There is no revenue generated by hacking than for those who write those programs. Especially when it's with stupid crap like games. If anything, both resources are being mis-used and they could have a positive impact in other fields.
Quote:
The private prison industry begs to differ. More bodies = more profit.

That's not people. That's white-collar scumbags who don't understand human life. They just see numbers on spreadsheets.
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