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Is a single loop TEC hybrid cooler feasible? - Page 2

post #11 of 27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LiamG6 View Post

If you use a standard CPU water block with an extremely low flow rate I think you will have big problems

This is a fair point. You would need water blocks that were effective at low flow rates.

Those cheap AIO blocks have pumps inside though. It might be possible to mod them to stir or recirculate the water locally to get a block which is effective at a low overall flow rate.
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post #12 of 27
Water isn't a magical substance that can be chilled to -10*c instantly (without thousands of watts worth of cooling anyway) and hold that temp despite flowing through a block that is cooling something that is dumping hundreds of watts of heat into the copper block and thus into the chilled water. If you just circulate your "chilled" water around the CPU block without passing through the cold block again it's not going to stay chilled for very long. The key to a chiller is to have the whole loop chilled, in order to do that you need to remove as much heat from the loop as possible, which TEC's are fantastic at, but not if you then gimp the whole thing by dumping twice the heat back into the loop.

Just change your plan ever so slightly, slap an AIO on the hot side of the TEC, or a large air cooler, this will drop you overall loop temp a degree or 2 if you are lucky. If you get a few TEC's, take the rads out of the cold side loop and just let the TEC's do their thing and water cool their hot sides to help them along the way.
Edited by LiamG6 - 7/13/16 at 7:22pm
post #13 of 27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LiamG6 View Post

You are also missing the point that with each pass through the entire loop your overall loop temp will increase, ie first pass 0*c-10*c+20*c=10*c, second pass 10*c-10*c+20*c=20*c, so on and so forth. You need to remove the heat from the loop, not try to have differing temps within the loop. And to actually have any temp change that large your loop is virtually not even flowing, meaning while your coolant is just "chilling out" (pardon the pun) in the cold block, the rest of the coolant is hanging out in the sauna of the CPU block and hotside block, heating up far faster than the cold block can chill the block down on the CPU.

The only possible way to do that would be to split the flow into a highly parallel low flow setup through many many cold side blocks, and run that through a CPU block in series. ie 10 TEC, 10 cold side blocks, parallel flow, 1gpm overall flow rate / 10 blocks = 0.1gpm/block, then series into CPU block. This way you get the coolant to dwell in the cold side block for longer, and you still get a high flow of chilled liquid to the CPU block without having to have an extremely low overall flow rate that would be detrimental for the CPU block. But if you went to the trouble of that, you may as well build a chiller without rads in cold side and do something that actually works quite effectively, rather than try to prove a point.

TEC's are designed to move heat from A to B, ie cold side to hot side, if you move the heat from A to B, back to A + the heat from A + B, you get a runaway loop that will get hotter and hotter. If you move heat from A to B and dump it to C, ie air, you get a loop that gets cooler and cooler until it reaches the max dT the TEC can provide with the heat load you are cooling.

The system needs a radiator large enough for thermal equilibrium so it can dump all the heat from the CPU and TEC in a single pass and return the water temp to the starting temp slightly above ambient. The water is moving slowly through the rad and enters quite hot so this isn't too unrealistic.

The TECs need to move about double the CPU power worth of heat for optimum results. So the TECs are perfectly capable of cooling the water faster than the CPU is heating it.

You need a lot of TECs anyway so you can undervolt them for efficiency. So the TEC block will be a big parallel block as you describe.

I don't want my cold loop to get colder and colder so I have to worry about controlling it to avoid condensation and freezing. All I want is for my load CPU temps to be reduced so I can cope better with the summer heat with an overclock.
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post #14 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiamG6 View Post

Water isn't a magical substance that can be chilled to -10*c instantly (without thousands of watts worth of cooling anyway) and hold that temp despite flowing through a block that is cooling something that is dumping hundreds of watts of heat into the copper block and thus into the chilled water. If you just circulate your "chilled" water around the CPU block without passing through the cold block again it's not going to stay chilled for very long. The key to a chiller is to have the whole loop chilled, in order to do that you need to remove as much heat from the loop as possible, which TEC's are fantastic at, but not if you then gimp the whole thing by dumping twice the heat back into the loop.

Just change your plan ever so slightly, slap an AIO on the hot side of the TEC, or a large air cooler, this will drop you overall loop temp a degree or 2 if you are lucky. If you get a few TEC's, take the rads out of the cold side loop and just let the TEC's do their thing and water cool their hot sides to help them along the way.

I have run the numbers and provided the source code so you can run the numbers yourself. If the model is correct then it shows it can work. Even if it is a bit surprising. Maybe you can find a bug in the model.

As I said in the original post, I'm doing a small build. It's all in a Mac Classic case http://www.overclock.net/t/1601519/build-log-mac-classic-forever/40#post_25337856 I don't have a lot of space left so I'm looking for a compact solution.
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post #15 of 27
If you are limited by space put a single large TEC on your CPU, cool the hot side with your water loop. Control it with PWM to avoid condensation.

I have a 26v 669w TEC running at 12v ~200w on my 4670k with a custom water block. If I run it flat out 12v constant on my 4670k overclocked to 5.1ghz with 30*c ambient temp I get approx -10*c at idle and up to 10*c at 100% load during stress testing. All this is cooled by a 120x40mm rad and a 360x45mm rad, I can hold less than 5*c delta in my water loop with these rads with PWM fans running 1000-3000rpm. So I'm getting 25-45*c delta on my TEC hot side to cold side, actually a little more as my hot side of TEC is a few degrees above water temp.

I am about to reinstall this setup in a new case with my PWM controller and I'll be setting my controller to maintain 10*c at all times, as I know it can hold that under all loads, this will avoid any unnecessary condensation from idle temp being too cold and also will save me a lot of power and heat dumped into my loop at idle. You could set your controller to 20*c etc to reduce risk of condensation, it would also use very little power and add very little heat into your loop but cool your CPU to ambient or slightly below.

This is a very compact solution and is far more effective than what you propose.

Picture of TEC block and PWM controller.


Edited by LiamG6 - 7/13/16 at 8:34pm
post #16 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiamG6 View Post

If you are limited by space put a single large TEC on your CPU, cool the hot side with your water loop. Control it with PWM to avoid condensation.

I have a 26v 669w TEC running at 12v ~200w on my 4670k with a custom water block. If I run it flat out 12v constant on my 4670k overclocked to 5.1ghz with 30*c ambient temp I get approx -10*c at idle and up to 10*c at 100% load during stress testing. All this is cooled by a 120x40mm rad and a 360x45mm rad, I can hold less than 5*c delta in my water loop with these rads with PWM fans running 1000-3000rpm. So I'm getting 25-45*c delta on my TEC hot side to cold side, actually a little more as my hot side of TEC is a few degrees above water temp.

I am about to reinstall this setup in a new case with my PWM controller and I'll be setting my controller to maintain 10*c at all times, as I know it can hold that under all loads, this will avoid any unnecessary condensation from idle temp being too cold and also will save me a lot of power and heat dumped into my loop at idle. You could set your controller to 20*c etc to reduce risk of condensation, it would also use very little power and add very little heat into your loop but cool your CPU to ambient or slightly below.

This is a very compact solution and is far more effective than what you propose.

Picture of TEC block and PWM controller.


That looks like a nice solution. I didn't know you could get TECs powerful enough that you can run them efficiently directly on a modern CPU. What TEC is it exactly?

My case has space for a 27mm 240 and two 40mm 120s. Not quite as much cooling as you have unfortunately.
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post #17 of 27
It is this TEC from Thermonamic http://www.thermonamic.com/TEHC1-19940-English.PDF

Foxrena, a user here on OCN, made my custom water block, which suits 62mm TEC's, he purchased this TEC for USD$70+shipping from thermonamic. You can browse his threads to see his results with this block before he sold it to me. You can also hit him up to see if he has any more blocks for sale or if he has time to make you one.

You could also use this with the 400w TEC from Customthermoelectric, http://customthermoelectric.com/tecs/pdf/19911-5M31-28CZ_spec_sht.pdf it is about 20% less performance than the 669w TEC.

with 480mm of rad space you will be fine.

What CPU do you have and what clocks/volts? still on X58? they are hot beasts and you will be close to maxing out the TEC, but as your goal seems to be slightly below ambient that is achievable.
post #18 of 27
I use this controller http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/TEC-controller-for-Peltier-modules-with-PID-7-25V-max-20A-cooling-mode-/231704893134?hash=item35f2b016ce:g:fJQAAOSwiLdWA-wf you need to ask the seller to configure the temp pot to suit the temp range you would like to control your tec at, I have one at -15*c to +15*c adjustable range, and another at 0*c to 30*c range.

you need a TO220 heatsink for the mosfet http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/34-x-38-x-12mm-Heatsink-Heat-Sink-IC-TO-247-TO-220-Sound-Transistors-Mosfet-/151506789498?hash=item234682247a:g:2HMAAOSwkNZUhYWd

and a 10k NTC thermistor (sealed bead with wires) http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/New-0-5-10m-NTC-Thermistor-Accuracy-Temperature-Sensor-10K-3435-Waterproof-Probe-/131705212360?var=&hash=item1eaa3e0dc8:m:mqmwrHFqMNYN1H2SV-UuGxQ

I use liquid electrical tape, rubber art eraser and sticky sided neoprene for insulation around the socket and on the back of the board, and dielectric grease in the socket.
Edited by LiamG6 - 7/13/16 at 9:20pm
post #19 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiamG6 View Post

It is this TEC from Thermonamic http://www.thermonamic.com/TEHC1-19940-English.PDF

Foxrena, a user here on OCN, made my custom water block, which suits 62mm TEC's, he purchased this TEC for USD$70+shipping from thermonamic. You can browse his threads to see his results with this block before he sold it to me. You can also hit him up to see if he has any more blocks for sale or if he has time to make you one.

You could also use this with the 400w TEC from Customthermoelectric, http://customthermoelectric.com/tecs/pdf/19911-5M31-28CZ_spec_sht.pdf it is about 20% less performance than the 669w TEC.

with 480mm of rad space you will be fine.

What CPU do you have and what clocks/volts? still on X58? they are hot beasts and you will be close to maxing out the TEC, but as your goal seems to be slightly below ambient that is achievable.

I'm planning X99 for this build assuming I can source the asrock ITX board which isn't on sale here. I'm building it to be ready for when people start selling off the 10 core HEDT and 22 core Xeons cheaply. So I have a few years to get it ready I guess. It's mainly just for the fun of building it. Hence the use of the Mac Classic Case and the TEC investigation.

The screen is a retina ipad display which is nice high resolution but very small. The intention is to get some VR goggles so the screen won't be used much.
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post #20 of 27
If you go X99 with that many cores a chiller is your best bet. They are not highly overclockable though so your plain water loop will be able to get them about as far as they will go. Even my little 4 core only got an extra 3-400mhz from going ambient water cooling to sub zero. I'd say X99 might get an extra 100mhz if it can handle it at all, unless you build a massive chiller.

you may be able to keep the CPU at or slightly below ambient with my 669w TEC, hard to say. I'm hoping ZEN is a good possibility for TEC cooling.
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