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Help me optimize my airflow ! - Page 5

post #41 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by doyll View Post

WHAT!!
Am I missing something in transation?
"... for AIO to work, they'd have to put the pump/res elsewhere ..."
The only AIOs (not CLCs ) I know of are Swiftech and EK with the pump mounted on the radiator. They have normal CPU waterblocks, so need a GPU block. I don't know of any CLC for GPU that are using a real GPU waterblock. They use modified CPU blocks. And these only cool the video chip, nothing else. All other GPU components are still air cooled.

Maybe we need to differentiate between AIO and CLC. While CLC are a sub-group of AIO, many of us are referring to CLC as not a part being AIO .. and AIO as All in One pre assembled and filled component coolers like Swiftech and EK are selling. AIOs are vastly superior in quality than CLC with copper radiators, pumps that move many, many times as much coolant, can be expanded, components can be changes, etc.

EK/swiftech are meant to be used with CPU which means the real estate used by the res/pump can cut into the airspace of the CPU HSF. however when used in a GPU application, you can't afford to make the assumption that the space over the CPU will be free for use. remember we are talking about a commercial product that is meant to be used in many configurations and you can't assume that the CPU will also be liquid cooled.

and yah....... i know the difference between AIO and CLC ;p
Quote:
Originally Posted by doyll View Post

" ... CLC still does work "better" then conventional GPU cooling solutions ... "
Sorry, but "better" is a rather strong .. and vague statement here. biggrin.gif
As I said above, the big 2x and 3x 95mm fan GPU coolers do a good job .. even with all their shortcomings. User just has to know a little about airflow, get a case designed to flow air properly and optimize case airflow.

Really it's not about cost or 'standard'. It's really about an industry that is using lies and decept in it's marketing hype to a naive and gullible consumer base that does not know and often don't care or bother to learn what they need to know to be a savy consumer that forces the industry to supply better products to them. tongue.gif
**climbs down off of soap box**

"better" is a relative term, true. but overall thermal profile of dumping GPU heat outside the case is in every way better then having the heat inside the case for any/all reasons. the only exception for this is if you are using a test bench case where it's just an open air environment where it doesn't matter. even a properly optimized case airflow will have a hard time competing with simply dumping all the heat outside the case that a CLC can offer. there are many designs of new products that depends on a cool temp inside the case. the PCIe NVMe SSD's or the M.2 SSD's are 2 examples that will benefit greatly from not having the GPU heat dumped inside the case however well the airflow design may be. (since most mobo have the M.2 slot located directly in the path of the GPU exhaust.)

you know i'm not a fan of CLC biggrin.gif but credit must be given when it's due. CLC does a better job at removing GPU heat then conventional solutions. i did NOT say anything about reliability of the overall system, but in terms of raw thermal design, the CLC offers a better solution then air for the GPU.
post #42 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by ikjadoon View Post


Thanks for joining us today, doyll. Please don't delete this post. I want to keep it forever. I almost want to make a plaque out of it to put in my room. You think CLCs on GPUs are industry propaganda....I love it. This is the quality of posting we want on OCN.
Excellent post. You've single-handedly debunked an entire industry and modding scene with this post. You should go post this in "The Mod" -- we'll all have a good laugh, I mean, a good discussion with you. But, watch out; you'll be walking right into the heart of this cult. We've all drunk the Kool-Aid. It will be quite hard for your paranoia, I mean evidence, to sway us.

And, while you bask in your 60C-load GPU temperatures, we'll be sure to be very careful with our 40C-load GPU temperatures. You know, it's a shame our radiators aren't thicker or our pumps aren't stronger. That would really help us; we might have been able to hit 30C-load GPU temperatures. But, alas, you're right. We're being held back by our inferior cooling solutions that yield far lower temperatures. Man. We got blind-sided! How could we be so stupid? If only prophet Doyll had warned us before we spent $70 on an AIO for our GPUs. Forgive us, almighty Doyll, for we found a solution without you.

Thank you for the early morning chuckles, haha. Let me know when you drink your coffee and re-read this thread.

BTW, on your last point, I did think about that as well. PCIe extenders aren't expensive, but I couldn't find a solid way to mount the GPU parallel to my motherboard. They have 90-degree PCIe slots, but they're in the wrong direction: the GPU is upside down! So, the extenders are the best, but still: I don't feel comfortable with a $400+ part just flailing around on a ribbon cable. The best idea would've been to mount a fan on the PCIe slot covers, but it looks like even after removing them, they still have metal in between.

alittle too much ad hominem, not really helping the discussion. lets try focusing on hard discussion.
post #43 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by psyclum View Post

EK/swiftech are meant to be used with CPU which means the real estate used by the res/pump can cut into the airspace of the CPU HSF. however when used in a GPU application, you can't afford to make the assumption that the space over the CPU will be free for use. remember we are talking about a commercial product that is meant to be used in many configurations and you can't assume that the CPU will also be liquid cooled.

and yah....... i know the difference between AIO and CLC ;p
"better" is a relative term, true. but overall thermal profile of dumping GPU heat outside the case is in every way better then having the heat inside the case for any/all reasons. the only exception for this is if you are using a test bench case where it's just an open air environment where it doesn't matter. even a properly optimized case airflow will have a hard time competing with simply dumping all the heat outside the case that a CLC can offer. there are many designs of new products that depends on a cool temp inside the case. the PCIe NVMe SSD's or the M.2 SSD's are 2 examples that will benefit greatly from not having the GPU heat dumped inside the case however well the airflow design may be. (since most mobo have the M.2 slot located directly in the path of the GPU exhaust.)

you know i'm not a fan of CLC biggrin.gif but credit must be given when it's due. CLC does a better job at removing GPU heat then conventional solutions. i did NOT say anything about reliability of the overall system, but in terms of raw thermal design, the CLC offers a better solution then air for the GPU.
Swiftech pump and reservoir on one side at end are 95mm and is 175mm long. If top mounted its is usually toward front of case. With 240 and 280 radiator would need to be mounts farther forward to clear most air coolers, and of course case used needs to be compatible as well or there would be clearance issues like you said.. Kinda like making sure RAM will fit under cooler .. and PCIe socket is not blocked by cooler. It's all part of making sure all components fit, into case .. including making sure the GPU is not too long to clear HDD cages.



EK Predator pump is on end of radiator with a total thicknes of 68mm, just fan and radiator thickness, This should not interfere with air cooling on CPU.


It is no more an issue than sellecting RAM that will fit under a cooler. To me it would be logical to get Swiftech H280 or H320, Predator 360 and add a GPU block to the loop instead of using an air cooler on CPU. Cost of adding GPU block is similar to good CPU air cooler and 360mm radiator is probably big enough to cool both in most builds. If it's not, an additional 240mm radiator and fans are about £60.00, but now we have a complete water cooling system.

Indeed, conventional GPU cooler design is terrible airflow management. It's as bad as CLC quality is. But both do the job even if just barely. tongue.gif

Besides, the CLC CPU coolers being sold as GPU coolers are really ghetto built GPU cooling. with only video chip being 'water cooled'.

Sure CLC does a better job of separating heated air from cool air, but they are simply not quilt well enough for me to trust .. and therefore for me to use. If I go back to water cooler it will be with at least Swiftech or EK like AIO system. Granted, they may not be top tier H2O components, but they are light years better than CLCs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radnad View Post

Yet ragging users for their "opinions" has become common place on OCN since admin left imo...
Indeed. It's been getting progressively worse for a couple of years now. .OCN needs to take control of the problem. Flaming a manufacturer is very different from flaming and trolling other members. Some posters here are not trying to logically discuss the CLC quality and CLC cooling versus air.
Edited by doyll - 7/13/16 at 12:36am
post #44 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by ikjadoon View Post

Oh, whoops. I thought I replied to this, but maybe I forgot to hit "submit", haha. To clarify, my remarks were in response to these words:
.
Not again. doh.gif
post #45 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by ikjadoon View Post


I'm glad we've, through some critical rational thinking, have moved this discussion beyond the illegitimate accusations hurled earlier. thumb.gif, everyone.

Well, as I stated earlier, a CLC does a fine job on a GPU.

If I were deaf, blind, had an irreplaceable stock cooler and real liquid cooling was unavailable, it would definitely consider this option! thumb.gif
post #46 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by ciarlatano View Post

Well, as I stated earlier, a CLC does a fine job on a GPU.

If I were deaf, blind, had an irreplaceable stock cooler and real liquid cooling was unavailable, it would definitely consider this option! thumb.gif
I agree.

This is second time ikjadoon posted thae all the quotes. rolleyes.gif
post #47 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by ciarlatano View Post

Well, as I stated earlier, a CLC does a fine job on a GPU.

If I were deaf, blind, had an irreplaceable stock cooler and real liquid cooling was unavailable, it would definitely consider this option! thumb.gif
I agree, would need to be deaf, but wouldn't need to be blind would yoi?
post #48 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by doyll View Post

Swiftech pump and reservoir on one side at end are 95mm and is 175mm long. If top mounted its is usually toward front of case. With 240 and 280 radiator would need to be mounts farther forward to clear most air coolers, and of course case used needs to be compatible as well or there would be clearance issues like you said.. Kinda like making sure RAM will fit under cooler .. and PCIe socket is not blocked by cooler. It's all part of making sure all components fit, into case .. including making sure the GPU is not too long to clear HDD cages.



EK Predator pump is on end of radiator with a total thicknes of 68mm, just fan and radiator thickness, This should not interfere with air cooling on CPU.


It is no more an issue than sellecting RAM that will fit under a cooler. To me it would be logical to get Swiftech H280 or H320, Predator 360 and add a GPU block to the loop instead of using an air cooler on CPU. Cost of adding GPU block is similar to good CPU air cooler and 360mm radiator is probably big enough to cool both in most builds. If it's not, an additional 240mm radiator and fans are about £60.00, but now we have a complete water cooling system.

Indeed, conventional GPU cooler design is terrible airflow management. It's as bad as CLC quality is. But both do the job even if just barely. tongue.gif

Besides, the CLC CPU coolers being sold as GPU coolers are really ghetto built GPU cooling. with only video chip being 'water cooled'.

Sure CLC does a better job of separating heated air from cool air, but they are simply not quilt well enough for me to trust .. and therefore for me to use. If I go back to water cooler it will be with at least Swiftech or EK like AIO system. Granted, they may not be top tier H2O components, but they are light years better than CLCs
Indeed. It's been getting progressively worse for a couple of years now. .OCN needs to take control of the problem. Flaming a manufacturer is very different from flaming and trolling other members. Some posters here are not trying to logically discuss the CLC quality and CLC cooling versus air.

I was thinking more along the rear exhaust mount rather then roof mount. hose length comes into play when using it for GPU. i'm not sure if swiftech/EK has a "GPU kit" with the proper hose lenght to bolt onto their AIO since i'm not really a liquid guy smile.gif i'm assuming they do, else you'd have to get the hoses and block yourself... but haven't really done any research into the subject. what it comes down to is Swiftech/EK will end up costing more since the default config is with the CPU block and you will immediately have to deal with the cost of the GPU kit if the original concern is to put GPU under liquid. at which point the price is approaching a very basic custom loop.

also not all chassis's have a roof mount option(most SFF cases don't have roof options) and I really hate the idea of having to mount the AIO as intake since you are simply dumping all that heat right back into the case. this negates one of the primary advantages of liquid which is to remove heat from inside the case in the 1st place.

quality wise, CLC isn't going to be the best, but at the same time you also don't have to worry about algae growth etc... it's an endless argument and personally i see it as outside of the scope of this discussion. if we can just all agree that CLC has the highest failure possibility of ALL cooling solutions for a computer and move pass this part of the discussion, then i think it would make the discussion more productive.

Ikjadoon is talking about performance efficiency and doyll is talking about the COST of that performance efficiency in terms of reliability... we get it.... lets move past it biggrin.gif "personally" i feel. in a GPU application, the reliability cost is worth it for the usable lifetime of the GPU in question. but that's my personal opinion. with that said, i'm still using an air cooler for my GPU... tongue.gif

so... lets try to move pass this bickering and back on discussion...
post #49 of 56
I used to run "the mod" on my GTX 470 SLI setup. It made a lot of sense there, with two cards that couldn't breathe and ran around 90*.

These days, with my 970, the core never exceeds 60* while gaming and never more than 50% fans on the GPU with a decent overclock and a lot of voltage... the rest of my system fans are spinning at less than 900rpm in this world. With TDPs as low as they are I'm not convinced that it's worth the hassle or temperature over ambient bragging rights. I have plenty of headroom and my system is quieter at load than any CLC pump I've encountered...

You should re-read those reviews and comparisons I posted earlier - a triple-slot air cooler more than holds it own against CLCs on GPUs, and with quite a bit less noise...

(Also, a h240-x and a GPU block isn't that much more expensive than other 280mm CLCs, especially when you throw in the cost of VRM heatsinks, VRM fan, and replacing the usually awful stock fans...)
Edited by claes - 7/13/16 at 1:28pm
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finally quiet
(20 items)
 
Peggy
(11 items)
 
Betty - WIP
(17 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i5-760 3.8 + turbo MSI P55-GD80 MSI GTX 970 Golden Edition 16GB Tactical LP 1600 c8 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
Samsung 840 Pro 128GB OCZ Agility 60GB Spinpoint F3 1TB Noctua NH-D15 
CoolingOSMonitorMonitor
2x NF-A15, CPU OS X 10.12, Win 10 Asus VW246H Ergotron Neo-Flex 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
CM Quick Fire Rapid EVGA Supernova G2 850W Silverstone FT-02W CM Spawn 
AudioAudioAudio
Sony TA-AX380 Sennheiser HD 280 KLH 911B 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i3-2125 GA-H61N USB3 HD3000 8GB Samsung Miracle RAM 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
Kingston 60GB 3ware/LSI 9750-4i Hitachi 5k3000 2TB x4 RAID 5 Intel for now 
OSPowerCase
OS X 10.8.2 Corsiar CX430M Fractal Design Node 304 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i3-2100 ASUS P8H67-M PRO/CSM ASUS Passive GT 440 4GB Dominator 1600 c8 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingCooling
Hitachi 120GB 2.5" LG BR-RW CM GeminII S + NF-P12 2x NF-R8 - Intake 
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post #50 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by psyclum View Post

I was thinking more along the rear exhaust mount rather then roof mount. hose length comes into play when using it for GPU. i'm not sure if swiftech/EK has a "GPU kit" with the proper hose lenght to bolt onto their AIO since i'm not really a liquid guy smile.gif i'm assuming they do, else you'd have to get the hoses and block yourself... but haven't really done any research into the subject. what it comes down to is Swiftech/EK will end up costing more since the default config is with the CPU block and you will immediately have to deal with the cost of the GPU kit if the original concern is to put GPU under liquid. at which point the price is approaching a very basic custom loop.

Swiftech makes the MCP140-X, which is a 140mm rad, pump and fan for this usage. You need to get the proper block for you card and tubing, fill it up and you are set.

Quote:
Originally Posted by doyll View Post

I agree, would need to be deaf, but wouldn't need to be blind would yoi?

I like clean looking builds, the "one-size-fits-none" tubing, and whatever you have to rig up to cool the VRM is not something I want to look at.
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