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[crossmap] AMD Zen APU Release Date and Specs: Set to be Released by Q1 of 2017? Will be Called AMD Zen FX? - Page 7

post #61 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

too big, you're probably gonna end up with a ~400mm² chip, this'll cost about $500 with 14nm Finfet.
furthermore, power consumption would be way above 140W, motherboards would end up being built with 6phase minimum, making it cost a lot.
the total cost would thus be ~$600 for the APU+Mobo set, is that worth integrating an RX470 into the APU die?
AMD is fully engaged with interposed separate dies. Nothing in their arsenal suggests big die solutions, simply too expensive for them when AMD is ardently looking for ways to cut costs down and have seemingly caught off some wind in this way. They are restructuring and not brute forcing their way forward.
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post #62 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtcn77 View Post

AMD is fully engaged with interposed separate dies. Nothing in their arsenal suggests big die solutions, simply too expensive for them when AMD is ardently looking for ways to cut costs down and have seemingly caught off some wind in this way. They are restructuring and not brute forcing their way forward.

thats what i'm saying.

i'm basically replying to his question, regarding integrating it directly into the APU die.
post #63 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

too big, you're probably gonna end up with a ~400mm² chip, this'll cost about $500 with 14nm Finfet.
furthermore, power consumption would be way above 140W, motherboards would end up being built with 6phase minimum, making it cost a lot.
the total cost would thus be ~$600 for the APU+Mobo set, is that worth integrating an RX470 into the APU die?

Are you pulling numbers out of your behind?
Data (Click to show)




Production costs for a ~400mm² would be between $45-70 on 14nm FinFET. If the chip integrates 16 GB of ram on board and allocates 8GB to the GPU and 8 GB to the CPU at a price point of $300 or less, How would it not be a good alternative to buying a discrete GPU for $200, a CPU for $200, and ram for $40?

Also, there are plenty of 6+ phase VRM motherboards that cost $150 or less on both AMD and Intel boards. In addition, a 6700K + motherboard can already cost around $600...
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post #64 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slomo4shO View Post

Are you pulling numbers out of your behind?
Data (Click to show)




Production costs for a ~400mm² would be between $45-70 on 14nm FinFET. If the chip integrates 16 GB of ram on board and allocates 8GB to the GPU and 8 GB to the CPU at a price point of $300 or less, How would it not be a good alternative to buying a discrete GPU for $200, a CPU for $200, and ram for $40?

Also, there are plenty of 6+ phase VRM motherboards that cost $150 or less on both AMD and Intel boards. In addition, a 6700K + motherboard can already cost around $600...

yields, die defects, binning, etc. not every chip will end up being a perfect whole.
just because the manufacturing cost would be seemingly low, doesn't mean it'll be as cheap as that image suggests.

furthermore i was talking about MSRP, technically RX480 is 232mm² yet its priced at $199~$249.
upscale that to 400mm² and you get about ~$300, and add the fact that its a premium chip then you'd end up with a $500 chip.
take intel's i7-5775C for example, or rather lets take AMD's approach, the price difference between A10-7850K and A8-7650K is +65% more despite being the same die.
Edited by epic1337 - 7/17/16 at 7:51am
post #65 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

yields, die defects, binning, etc. not every chip will end up being a perfect whole.
just because the manufacturing cost would be seemingly low, doesn't mean it'll be as cheap as that image suggests.

furthermore i was talking about MSRP, technically RX480 is 232mm² and is priced at $199~$249.
upscale that to 400mm² and you get about ~$400, and add the fact that its a premium chip then you'd end up with a $500 chip.
take intel's i7-5775C for example, or rather lets take AMD's approach, the price difference between A10-7850K and A8-7650K is +65% more despite being the same die.
AMD's APU performance line has been ~250mm^2 for the past few gens it is quite likely that they once again increased the share taken up by the GPU.
Perhaps as far as 60% for the GPU and the rest for the CPU and memory controller. Even if they allocated a mere 40% to the GPU portion that would be:
0.4 * 250 = 100 mm^2 this would put it at about a 1000 SPs. (dividing by the RX 480's die space then multiplying by it's shader units)
If we take the 60% number we would end up with a lot more so I don't think 1000-1500SPs would be strange it would be clocked a lot lower than the 470 and 480 though I expect 700-900MHz core.

There is also the possibility that they go small die a 100-150 mm^2 die with 4 Zen cores (1 Zen cluster) and a 512SP GPU portion.
post #66 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

yields, die defects, binning, etc.

Those issues are only present in APU production? The figures above are based on average yields per wafer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

furthermore i was talking about MSRP, technically RX480 is 232mm² and is priced at $199~$249.
upscale that to 400mm² and you get about ~$400, and add the fact that its a premium chip then you'd end up with a $500 chip.

You seem to forget that the GPU is only a fraction of the cost of the discrete board priced at $200



Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

take intel's i7-5775C for example.

Not sure what you are trying to get at...

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post #67 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by maarten12100 View Post

AMD's APU performance line has been ~250mm^2 for the past few gens it is quite likely that they once again increased the share taken up by the GPU.
Perhaps as far as 60% for the GPU and the rest for the CPU and memory controller. Even if they allocated a mere 40% to the GPU portion that would be:
0.4 * 250 = 100 mm^2 this would put it at about a 1000 SPs. (dividing by the RX 480's die space then multiplying by it's shader units)
If we take the 60% number we would end up with a lot more so I don't think 1000-1500SPs would be strange it would be clocked a lot lower than the 470 and 480 though I expect 700-900MHz core.

There is also the possibility that they go small die a 100-150 mm^2 die with 4 Zen cores (1 Zen cluster) and a 512SP GPU portion.

i already mentioned that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

an IGP with a core config of 1024:64:16 and uses HBM2 as a buffer would only manage to reach RX470 if its clocked at least ~70% higher.
edit: on a side note, FX-8800P and A12-8800B has a core config of 512:32:8, so its likely possible to double it using 14nm finfet node.

i think AMD wouldn't push for a large die, specially not on an APU as it would just drive costs up.
who would buy an expensive APU if users could just go for a cheaper CPU and a more powerful GPU?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Slomo4shO View Post

You seem to forget that the GPU is only a fraction of the cost of the discrete board priced at $200
all the more reason to push a higher MSRP, they aren't making powerful chips to scrape a penny you know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slomo4shO View Post

Not sure what you are trying to get at...
premium pricing for premium products, they're always more expensive, specially when its their best chip.
Edited by epic1337 - 7/17/16 at 8:04am
post #68 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

premium pricing for premium products, they're always more expensive, specially when its their best chip.

The 5775R came in at the same price as the 4770K and the 5775C demanded a 7.5% premium. Kind of hard to compare apples to apples here since Broadwell only had 2 desktop SKUs...

Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

all the more reason to push a higher MSRP, they aren't making powerful chips to scrape a penny you know.

A company that has 10% marketshare has no capacity to demand a premium for a product. AMD can only deliver a competitive product at a competitive price if it wishes to stay in business.
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post #69 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

i already mentioned that.
i think AMD wouldn't push for a large die, specially not on an APU as it would just drive costs up.
who would buy an expensive APU if you could just go for a cheaper CPU and a more powerful GPU?
all the more reason to push a higher MSRP, they aren't making powerful chips to scrape a penny you know.
premium pricing for premium products, they're always more expensive, specially when its their best chip.
Except there won't be a best chip. AMD will fix us a HBM2 flavoured multi-chip Polaris. They are way ahead with semi-custom. How hard could it be to dislodge the GDDR5 controller and replace it with HBM2 I/O? They wouldn't be able to launch a separate die at this point, even semi-custom console architectures take a few years to roll out. They wouldn't risk it any bigger in my opinion when they have SERIOUS issues with product streamlining.
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post #70 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtcn77 View Post

Except there won't be a best chip. AMD will fix us a HBM2 flavoured multi-chip Polaris. They are way ahead with semi-custom. How hard could it be to dislodge the GDDR5 controller and replace it with HBM2 I/O? They wouldn't be able to launch a separate die at this point, even semi-custom console architectures take a few years to roll out. They wouldn't risk it any bigger in my opinion when they have SERIOUS issues with product streamlining.

i think theres a hint from AMD on this case.

Zen APU is scheduled 2017, Vega is scheduled 2017.
there should be a reason why the APUs are being held back, the most probable one is that they'd be using Vega dies.
Vega is designed to use HBM, so if Zen APUs will also be using HBM then this should be likely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slomo4shO View Post

A company that has 10% marketshare has no capacity to demand a premium for a product. AMD can only deliver a competitive product at a competitive price if it wishes to stay in business.
then they wouldn't be releasing a premium chip because they wouldn't be able to pull a decent profit off it, rather just stuff us with cheaper chips at a higher margin.

*cough* $249 polaris flagship *cough*
Edited by epic1337 - 7/17/16 at 8:18am
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Rumors and Unconfirmed Articles › [crossmap] AMD Zen APU Release Date and Specs: Set to be Released by Q1 of 2017? Will be Called AMD Zen FX?