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[Tech4Gamers] AMD Radeon RX 460 for $99 and the Radeon RX 470 for $149 - Page 37

post #361 of 470
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperZan View Post

That would have made a bit more sense. As it stands the 470/480 both represent good value even if they present an odd price continuum around that $200 tier. I'd find it much more difficult to recommend the 460. It's just... odd. It makes sense as a mobile part but less so for the desktop, though at least it will allow AMD to finally stop selling low-end islands cards which is a plus. A 465 would present a potentially more interesting value play at the right price and be a contender for a spot in my HTPC. I was hoping to slot the 460 there but I'd almost rather buy a 470 given the product positioning.

It should really be $99-110. The PowerColor card I linked earlier is really the only acceptable one based on price. I mentioned earlier that $120-130 was okay, but I retract that and refer to the $99-110 price point.
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post #362 of 470

Yeah the PowerColor card certainly looks to be the winner out of this bunch. They've been on a roll for a bit; I've really been impressed with their build quality and design on the last few cards I've bought from them.

     
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post #363 of 470
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperZan View Post

That would have made a bit more sense. As it stands the 470/480 both represent good value even if they present an odd price continuum around that $200 tier. I'd find it much more difficult to recommend the 460. It's just... odd. It makes sense as a mobile part but less so for the desktop, though at least it will allow AMD to finally stop selling low-end islands cards which is a plus. A 465 would present a potentially more interesting value play at the right price and be a contender for a spot in my HTPC. I was hoping to slot the 460 there but I'd almost rather buy a 470 given the product positioning.

AMD has been making choices that, while they may seem logical to them, are anything but to consumers. The reason they are not releasing the full chip is probably yields and eventually some company like Apple is paying them well for the full chips. But that is meaningless to us.

Had the Polaris 11 chip had more performance and more perf. / watt then the cut version as we have it now would probably compensate for that, but the reality is it doesn't and here we are wishing that we had the full chip instead. Just like it didn't make any sense for them to release the R9 285 2 GB to replace the R9 280 3 GB that didn't outperform it consistently and promising a 4 GB version that only materialised with the R9 380. And then the full Tonga chip which was released way too late with the 380X.

Well, one thing is for sure, they can stop selling the GCN 1.0 Radeon HD 7870 / 7850 rebranded chips.

The Polaris lineup looks like Maxwell efficiency two years later... on a newer, smaller node. They made a few enahcements to the arch, updated the display controller, catching up to the criticism of the Fury line-up not having support for the latest standards; they updated the video engine and that's it, no major arch enhancements. They are doing the minimums, which to them unfortunately is pretty much doing the maximums. However, I can't shake the feeling that some very bad, yet simple decisions were made. The RX 470 for example is too expensive. The RX 480 stock cooler makes them look like a company with no sense of memory - they got the criticism for the R9 290X and 290 coolers, they said they got it, improved with the Fury X; on the CPU side release the Wraith cooler and then bam... the RX 480 reference cooler, the only model available for weeks, is crap.

At least their driver department seems to be making an honest and consistent effort over the past year to keep on top of things.
Edited by tpi2007 - 8/9/16 at 4:06pm
 
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post #364 of 470

I've got to agree, it's really been a disjointed roll-out and I continue to feel as though the 480 is the unplanned child in the Polaris family. As much as we all wanted to see a bit more in the way of progress in terms of efficiency and performance, these cards do make up a bit of the old DX11 overhead and provide new features. With a more carefully designed launch they could really have built up loads of good publicity with these cards but with the separated launches we get weird pricing overlaps and more time to pick apart each card. The 460 could be a bit stronger, the 470 seems to be right there in terms of price/performance, and then the 480 is a good value relative to its competitors but has that feel of an over-large engine strapped to a go-kart frame or the like. As though it wasn't meant to be. I don't know, I'm still quite up on Zen and I think Vega will be interesting but I wish for AMD's sake that the Polaris launch had been handled with more care. As it is, I continue to be impressed with what AMD's engineers are doing on shoestring budgets. That they're making any progress at all on old architectures, however incremental, is probably the most impressive thing about AMD at the moment. 

     
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post #365 of 470
speaking of which, why didn't AMD make polaris10 bigger?
e.g. 2560:160:48 | 320bit | 5GB/10GB

same goes with polaris11.
e.g. 1280:80:24 | 192bit | 3GB/6GB

these configurations would be about 1.3x larger.
its not a gigantic die size increase, but plenty enough to make a large performance difference.
Edited by epic1337 - 8/9/16 at 4:21pm
post #366 of 470
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperZan View Post

I've got to agree, it's really been a disjointed roll-out and I continue to feel as though the 480 is the unplanned child in the Polaris family. As much as we all wanted to see a bit more in the way of progress in terms of efficiency and performance, these cards do make up a bit of the old DX11 overhead and provide new features. With a more carefully designed launch they could really have built up loads of good publicity with these cards but with the separated launches we get weird pricing overlaps and more time to pick apart each card. The 460 could be a bit stronger, the 470 seems to be right there in terms of price/performance, and then the 480 is a good value relative to its competitors but has that feel of an over-large engine strapped to a go-kart frame or the like. As though it wasn't meant to be. I don't know, I'm still quite up on Zen and I think Vega will be interesting but I wish for AMD's sake that the Polaris launch had been handled with more care. As it is, I continue to be impressed with what AMD's engineers are doing on shoestring budgets. That they're making any progress at all on old architectures, however incremental, is probably the most impressive thing about AMD at the moment. 

thumb.gif

The RX 470 price / perf. is right if you can find one for the MSRP, but with no reference model available and with some AIBs charging $209 - $220 the overlap with the RX 480 is inevitable. The RX 480 on the other hand does seem like it is taking more than it was designed for. That card with only 32 ROPs seems like it was designed to be clocked lower, and hence the heatsink and power draw mismatch.

I'm also looking forward to Zen, but as to Vega, I can't shake the feeling that it's going to be a Polaris 10 x 2 (a single chip with 4608 cores) with HBM2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

speaking of which, why didn't AMD make polaris10 bigger?
e.g. 2560:160:48 | 320bit | 5GB/10GB

same goes with polaris11.
e.g. 1280:80:24 | 192bit | 3GB/6GB

these configuration would be about 1.3x larger.
its not a gigantic die size increase, but plenty enough to make a large performance difference.


My thoughts too. Your Polaris 10 example would handily compete and mostly beat the R9 390X and GTX 980 instead of being between the 390 and 390X and the Polaris 11 would put the GTX 950 behind for good.
Edited by tpi2007 - 8/9/16 at 4:27pm
 
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post #367 of 470
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post


The Polaris lineup looks like Maxwell efficiency two years later... on a newer, smaller node. They made a few enahcements to the arch, updated the display controller, catching up to the criticism of the Fury line-up not having support for the latest standards; they updated the video engine and that's it, no major arch enhancements. They are doing the minimums, which to them unfortunately is pretty much doing the maximums. However, I can't shake the feeling that some very bad, yet simple decisions were made. The RX 470 for example is too expensive. The RX 480 stock cooler makes them look like a company with no sense of memory - they got the criticism for the R9 290X and 290 coolers, they said they got it, improved with the Fury X; on the CPU side release the Wraith cooler and then bam... the RX 480 reference cooler, the only model available for weeks, is crap.

At least their driver department seems to be making an honest and consistent effort over the past year to keep on top of things.

A few weeks ago I would have agreed with you wholeheartedly, but with greater hindsight, especially with respect to the 480, I think it's a little too harsh to call Polaris just Maxwell efficiency two years later. I think the reviews of the cards are the main reasons for your observation, but if we analyse these reviews and the context in which they were made, I think a lot of them are particularly unforgiving on the Polaris GPU.

For example TechPowerUp, a large hardware review site and very well respected. Their performance summary that so many put so much stock in, if you look closely, is based on a relatively small game sample including old games that favour Nvidia hardware (BF3 AND BF4, why both? And Crysis 3) but no DOOM! And certainly not DOOM in Vulkan. This is context that we need to consider. Not only no DOOM, which massively favours Polaris cards, but Hitman not benched in DX12 either. Context. So the performance summary would look very different if you swapped out those 3 old DX11 titles and included newer and DX12 and Vulkan titles. I would argue the new games are more relevant. Also, on the subject of TPU, their power draw figures are way off from other sites and show Polaris particularly unfavourably compared to Pascal.

What is AMD's fault though is being late with drivers so that this poor perception of their cards continues. For example the RotTR drivers last week give a huge 10% boost for the 480 in that game, but they release it weeks after every major site has reviewed the Polaris flagship and drawn performance conclusions about the chip that will stick to it for likely the duration of its lifespan. We have conclusions that AMD are a gen behind with efficiency. It's not quite that bad if you read between the lines. Especially if you look at performance in newer titles.
post #368 of 470
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

My thoughts too. Your Polaris 10 example would handily compete and mostly beat the R9 390X and GTX 980 instead of being between the 390 and 390X and the Polaris 11 would put the GTX 950 behind for good.

indeed, plus they can play the niche-type flagship.

something like the full chip 2560:160:48 | 320bit | 10GB water cooled at $300.
and a low-power (low clocked) full chip 2560:160:48 | 320bit | 10GB at $250.
and a cutdown of that die, e.g. 2048:128:48 | 320bit | 10GB would be a perfect fit for the $200 price mark.


it wouldn't be much different from their lineups, as a matter of fact its quite similar to the current FURY card lineup.
the key thing here is that, polaris cards PCB size is small, small enough to actually look like a FURY X when fitted the same cooler.
and their "VR premium" card of $200 doesn't necessarily mean top-end, even the current RX470 could flawlessly do it.
Edited by epic1337 - 8/9/16 at 5:44pm
post #369 of 470
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

indeed, plus they can play the niche-type flagship.

something like the full chip 2560:160:48 | 320bit | 10GB water cooled at $300.
and a low-power (low clocked) full chip 2560:160:48 | 320bit | 10GB at $250.
and a cutdown of that die, e.g. 2048:128:48 | 320bit | 10GB would be a perfect fit for the $200 price mark.


it wouldn't be much different from their lineups, as a matter of fact its quite similar to the current FURY card lineup.
the key thing here is that, polaris cards PCB size is small, small enough to actually look like a FURY X when fitted the same cooler.
and their "VR premium" card of $200 doesn't necessarily mean top-end, even the current RX470 could flawlessly do it.

Why the obsession with 10gb of VRAM? Also it would be 384b with 48 ROPs, 320b would net you 40 ROPs.

It is likely that Polaris is a "pipe-cleaner" chip for the 14nm process. Vega is expected to cover low, mid, and high end.
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post #370 of 470
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarathKasun View Post

Why the obsession with 10gb of VRAM?

It is likely that Polaris is a "pipe-cleaner" chip for the 14nm process. Vega is expected to cover low, mid, and high end.

well because on the upper end of the market having less VRAM is only going to make it less ideal?
for the most part, the lower capacity cards have less profit margins than the high capacity cards.
technically the difference between 10GB and 5GB vram chips doesn't even exceed $10, yet the premium of an additional 5GB is ~$30.
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