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[TG] Tesla's Third Autopilot Crash Reported. No Plans To Disable Autopilot Mode. - Page 8

post #71 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by essanbee View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuell View Post

There are disclaimers and its in the owners manual, they won't lose a single lawsuit. You don't win lawsuits for being an idiot, you win them if the company forgets to cover their arse, and they most certainly have in this case over how to properly use the "autopilot" feature.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fragamemnon View Post

I'm sorry but that is incorrect. Autopilots do not lift the need of an operator keeping an overview on the course/altitude/whatever the function the autopilot fulfills. Also, autopilots have a quick way to be overridden in case anything goes wrong - that is the operator's responsibility, too.

Moreover, I am absolutely certain that there are explicit mentions and warnings that the autopilot should not be left to operate the vehicle without supervision.
I also have the feeling that basing your arguments around the name in a court case will give you zero ground.

We shall see. Logic and common sense, even legality, don't protect you in court nowadays.

Merriam Webster
Simple Definition of autopilot

: a device that steers a ship, aircraft, or spacecraft in place of a person
From FAA issued Automated Flight Controls: (Click to show)
Quote:
You will learn how the autopilot and the flight management
system (FMS)/area navigation (RNAV) unit combine to
create a fairly automated form of flight that places you in
a managerial role. While the autopilot relieves you from
manually manipulating the flight controls, you must maintain
vigilance over the system to ensure that it performs the
intended functions and the aircraft remains within acceptable
parameters of altitudes, airspeeds, and airspace limits.
Quote:
How To Use an Autopilot Function
The following steps are required to use an autopilot function:
1. Specify desired track as defined by heading, course,
series of waypoints, altitude, airspeed, and/or vertical
speed.
2. Engage the desired autopilot function(s) and verify
that, in fact, the selected modes are engaged by
monitoring the annunciator panel.
3. Verify that desired track is being followed by the
aircraft.
4. Verify that the correct navigation source is selected
to guide the autopilot’s track.
5. Be ready to fly the aircraft manually to ensure proper
course/clearance tracking in case of autopilot failure
or misprogramming.

6. Allow the FD/autopilot to accomplish the modes
selected and programmed without interference, or
disengage the unit. Do not attempt to “help” the
autopilot perform a task. In some instances this has
caused the autopilot to falsely sense adverse conditions
and trim to the limit to accomplish its tasking. In more
than a few events, this has resulted in a total loss of
control and a crash.

Shall we assume the MW definition correct but not complete to the full extent?
I don't think this is a simple subject which may be broken down to definitions alone.
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post #72 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by fragamemnon View Post

From FAA issued Automated Flight Controls: (Click to show)

Shall we assume the MW definition correct but not complete to the full extent?
I don't think this is a simple subject which may be broken down to definitions alone.

I understand your expansion of the basic definition, but there are gross differences between aircraft pilot's license requirement's and that of an automobile driver's license. I would have no problem if obtaining your auto driving license was a difficult, you must study or fail, and prove knowledge in the real world kind of test. Flying (I was a private pilot) kind of takes care of itself as far as motivation to learn correctly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuell View Post

Well it can drive completely autonomous, but its called a semi-autonomous car for a reason, there is a manual for a reason, there are visual/audible warnings for drivers to actually hold the wheel for a reason, the car won't continue to drive without some form of user input/hand detection on steering wheel for a reason. I don't think there'd be much of a chance of getting around this stuff. I mean, people can and def. will try, as in the case of spilling hot coffee on yourself and suing the company you bought it from... So who knows. But at least logically this should be impossible. Coffee companies simply needed to print a "Caution coffee is hot and sky is blue" on their cups, so the many things Tesla have done should be easily enough to cover their arses...

I still think it will bite them in the arse eventually. And apparently these collisions are happening despite any warnings and software safety interlocks. If that 18 wheeler had been a school bus full of kids (trite example I know) would the parents have a case against Tesla? I bet they would.
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post #73 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by essanbee View Post

And apparently these collisions are happening despite any warnings and software safety interlocks.

See. Human error.
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post #74 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smanci View Post

See. Human error.

Yes, I believe all the people involved in creating the Tesla are human. Glad you agree. biggrin.gif
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post #75 of 92
I didn't even want a Tesla anyway, Elio is where its at.

Although these accidents were purely human error on the drivers' part.
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post #76 of 92
There has been more news articles discussing liability. Specifically it is unlikely that Tesla will be able to use fine print to get out of all liability in the crashes. Of course, the courts will decide that.

http://www.autonews.com/article/20160715/OEM11/160719894/tesla-wont-be-able-to-put-crash-defense-on-autopilot
Quote:
Lawyers compare giving Tesla drivers Autopilot to building a swimming pool without a fence; the property owner should know that neighborhood kids will find it hard to resist and may get hurt.

“There’s a concept in the legal profession called an attractive nuisance," said Tab Turner, another lawyer specializing in auto-defect cases. “These devices are much that way right now. They’re all trying to sell them as a wave of the future, but putting in fine print, ‘Don’t do anything but monitor it.’ It’s a dangerous concept.’’

As with so-called smart features before it such as anti-lock brakes and electronic stability control, telling drivers Autopilot might not prevent an accident won’t help Tesla in court if the technology is found to be defective, Turner said.

“Warnings alone are never the answer to a design problem,’’ he said.
post #77 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightbird View Post

There has been more news articles discussing liability. Specifically it is unlikely that Tesla will be able to use fine print to get out of all liability in the crashes. Of course, the courts will decide that.

http://www.autonews.com/article/20160715/OEM11/160719894/tesla-wont-be-able-to-put-crash-defense-on-autopilot


Swimming pools don't have fences in them though. For when you're-actually-swimming. Wow, what an effin' retarded analogy.
post #78 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Scone View Post

Swimming pools don't have fences in them though. For when you're-actually-swimming. Wow, what an effin' retarded analogy.

You don't see the analogy?
Swimming pools have fences because warnings don't work.
Tesla's have warnings because warnings don't work.
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post #79 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Scone View Post

Swimming pools don't have fences in them though. For when you're-actually-swimming. Wow, what an effin' retarded analogy.

It's an analogy that most people can understand, though not all obviously...

ninja
Quote:
Originally Posted by essanbee View Post

You don't see the analogy?
Swimming pools have fences because warnings don't work.
Tesla's have warnings because warnings don't work.
post #80 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by essanbee View Post

You don't see the analogy?
Swimming pools have fences because warnings don't work.
Tesla's have warnings because warnings don't work.

Just because that's an example doesn't mean you would be definitely be held liable. What about you build a fence but a kid climbs it and drowns. Can you sue the homeowners association cause they have a height limit on the fence? What if you leave your keys in your car and a neighborhood kid steals it and runs someone over. Is that your fault since you left your keys in the car? My wifes car has blind spot detection built into the side mirrors and light up when someone is in the blind spot. If it's not showing and I hit a car is it Toytotas fault? Doubt that would hold up.
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