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[TechSpot] Star Citizen backer gets his $3000 pledge refunded with help from the LA District Attorney - Page 8

post #71 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie View Post

Feel free to post those reports, because as the others have even said.....they haven't been disclosed.

I did post them, you went through the effort of quoting my post but you didn't even look at my link to Companies House. rolleyes.gif
Quote:
You are right, I will just go back to not being an Accountant, and just an observant businessman. I will leave the hard math to my wife, who is an Accountant.
rolleyes.gif

Yep, of course, everyone on the internet knows better.
Quote:
Keep chasing the carrot. But, again, that is just my totally non-Accountant opinion, and is only based on years of business experience.

Keep chasing the carrot? Did you even read my post that you're quoting? I've put a tiny amount of money into Star Citizen, and would never put any more into it, because it's just a donation and I realise there's a good chance Star Citizen is not going to be what it claims it's going to be.
Quote:
You are right, it is simple; you aren't 'donating' anything to them, they are literally trying to sell a product. Calling it a donation isn't going to change the fact that they have been completely irresponsible with their funding, and are literally running on money generated by making more promises of content.

For a self proclaimed business man it's odd you don't seem to understand the concept of donations. The donations are funding development. They are in fact developing the game with the fact they have 3/4 studios and 300+ employees. You don't get to tell CIG how to spend their development fund, that's for them to manage. But obviously you can have whatever opinion you want about it though and sit there and claim they're mismanaging/being irresponsible with their funds, go wild.
Quote:
No one is getting upset here, but you. A person makes a very valid point, and you come running waving the finger yelling "But, but, but....donations....and they are good!"

Nope, I'm not getting upset, again your reading comprehension skills are failing you.

As I've said for the 4th time, I've only put a tiny amount of money into it. I think it would be a cool game, but I also have no expectations. I've got more than my (small) amount of moneys worth I've put into the game as I've played a lot of it, if it fails then fine. I have no emotional (or financial) ties to the game. But I also don't sit here getting a boner over criticizing Star Citizen.

I don't think donations are good, I never said that. I've specifically said I've not put any real money into it due to my previously mentioned points.

I really feel like there's no point me replying due to the fact you're just going to come back into this thread and be like "yeah, but I'm a business man so I know best. Also my wife is an accountant, you're just upset!". You really sound like the kid in school who claims he got the new Halo game 10 months early because his uncle works at Microsoft.

Regardless, you're not going to read a single word of anything I've typed and you're just going to reply to it in whatever fashion that gets your keyboard-warrior-erection the hardest.



Just to reiterate my stance for anyone who can't be bothered to read:

1. I've put a tiny amount of money into Star Citizen, just the base £35. I've already played 15ish hours.
2. Of course I think there's a chance Star Citizen will flop.
3. The only financials we have access to is their UK studios companies house reports, the figures of which are very healthy. Indicative of the rest of their operations? Who knows. But at the same time, no one can say otherwise, we have no proof that that. The only financial proof we have is positive.
4. I think Star Citizen should have stopped accepting donation money a long time ago, and only offer the base game at a reduced rate pre-order. CIG aren't going to do that though because people keep giving them money.
5. I don't see how people can go around saying "Star Citizen have mismanaged their money/been irresponsible/*insert financial based claim here which no one can verify*. Don't give them money!"
At the same time I would not go around saying "Give Star Citizen money!"
Edited by Cyph3r - 7/18/16 at 12:36am
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post #72 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghoxt View Post

Glad you asked, I specifically care because I was planning on playing the game and "Paying" for the completed game, like I have, for all Chris other Wing Commander games which I have historically Fully purchased at release. I care that a game I plan on buying actually ships. You asked.

Also even as you most likely payed for a "working" keyboard. You did not prepay for it and then get shipped one Key at a time over a 3 year period. I'm not at odds with the dollar amount in and of itself...(that would be pretty hypocritical with SLI Titan-X). I'm at odds of not getting what you paid for when promised, knowing there was nothing binding, and then complaining about it when you knew the exact deal you were getting into.

We will of course look at this through different lenses. I could care less that anyone agrees with me. As an adult, you should not care that I have a different opinion than your own.  No harm no foul. 

Below is not directed at you prava , as none of my initial post was directed at you...
I question eventually how far does one stretch new method of user finance and is there any way a user can realize $3K+ of enjoyment in the game when it does ship? Serious question. 

To be honest I did pre-pay my keybard. I paid for it in december and just received it two days ago. It came from a crowdfunding campaign, no less. And the thing got delayed several times. Of course it isn't comparable to what Star Citizen is doing, of course. If anything because hardware crowdfunded projects are far more realistic and they offer 0 stretch goals. You pay for a thing, and maybe if they sell a lot the price per unit might get down (it happens with keycaps). But they don't offer you fancy stuff if you break this or the other barrier.

About personal spenditure... I work in one of the most expensive leisure industries there is... and $3k for many people is simply pocket cash. Some of our clientes spend north of $100,000 for a dinner with some friends... you can imagine, then, what it means to spend $3k on something that might give you hours of enjoyment. In the end, if you are worth 8 or 9 figures....you simply look at this differently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyph3r View Post

Eh?

I'll admit I was slightly wrong, The financials are for Foundry 42, the UK Studio.

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/08703814/filing-history

Go wild, all the information you could want. The top 20 page PDF is their companies house annual report submitted to the government. The figures are incredibly healthy.

Again you said they have never once published their financials. They have. This is exactly what I mean when people slate Star Citizen without knowing the facts. It blows my mind.

Your comment about the health of the company is unfounded. When you are talking about a group of companies, specially a group such as this, in which you have the companies separated based on what they do (talking about cashflow, not work done) you can't simply look at one of the satellites. In this case, this studio receives money from the main company... meaning: it will never show any bad signs, because they do not generate money, they spend it.

So, the only way of looking at the "health" of the whole endeavour would be to check for the company that receives and passes on the money. With that you could check how is the overall spenditure and compare it against revenue. Otherwise we lack any information that could show us anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ILoveHighDPI View Post

Is that part of the subscriber material? I haven't seen any spending reports, but maybe I just need to do more actual reading instead of just watching ATV.

12 million on a production crew this size is very good, and if it's true that would be very relieving to hear.
At that rate they really could take a decade to work on the PU.
I say that not to be funny, but this game above almost anything else hinges on the development of new technology. There is no way to get faster results, and in some ways I don't want faster results. Part of the appeal of Star Citizen is that they're doing things that have never been done before, and even though they have the right talent, there's a limited number of people in the world who can tackle these sorts of problems, and unfortunately they're still susceptible to the same 24 hour days as the rest of us.

No, those 12M stated are completely bogus. The UK crew, with 132 employees, are spending around $20,000,000 a year. So, if you assume that wages in the US are at least as high and they have at least 300 employees we are looking at no less than $40,000,000 a year in expenses. Probably more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ILoveHighDPI View Post

The big disconnect between what we see now and what we all heard and read in 2012 is that Chris expected "maybe" three million dollars from crowdfunding, and had private investors to cover the rest of a $25 million development budget.

If you start with a plan for $25 million and end up with over four times more, from crowdfunding alone, the idea of sticking to the original plan would be almost as wasteful as what the naysayers "imagine" is going on. Why waste four years of your life developing something so limited in scope when you've already been given the money to do something far better?
This is the wild west of game development, no-one could have possibly anticipated what was going to happen, and no-one could possibly have been fully prepared for it.
Squadron 42 is the the most critical immediate goal, it's the middle ground between fanciful dreams and shipping a product, hopefully they can deliver relatively soon.

And we know they had investors behind because.... they say so?

Also, if you start with a budget for $25 million and end up with $100 million... congrats, you have made a $75M profit. How could people ever not be happy when they get what they paid for, in time? Instead, what we have now is a product that keeps getting bigger just as much as it keeps getting delayed. Overall, what some of you don't see is that the longer the chain gets the more money Mr Roberts getss. Whatever happens with this game, whether it is ever released or not, he has cashed out long ago.

Which is why crowdfunding is so dangerous: you are paying for a product before it is even made... which means that because there is no incentive to ever finish it, some companies don't bother. In this case, Star Citizen is probably at the top of its potential revenue. Do I have to tell you what will happen once money stops flowing? And that will happen, eventually, specially at their expenditure level... unless they can wrap up the products and deliver them very, very soon. And maybe get an influx of revenue while doing so.
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post #73 of 88
While I chose not to back the Kickstarter project back in the days, I do hope this game will come out and live up to expectations. The concept is at least something I would love to see and play.
post #74 of 88
Maybe you'll see the game (part of it) in 1.5 - 2 years time. Until then - happy waiting.

Isn't there an option in kickstarter that once you've reached the amount that you wanted it should stop and not accept any more donations?

They're still accepting money right? People should probably stop giving them money at this point. It will only encourage further feature creep and delays.
post #75 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by XenoRad View Post

Maybe you'll see the game (part of it) in 1.5 - 2 years time. Until then - happy waiting.

Isn't there an option in kickstarter that once you've reached the amount that you wanted it should stop and not accept any more donations?

They're still accepting money right? People should probably stop giving them money at this point. It will only encourage further feature creep and delays.

No.

Maybe 9-12 months out.

The entire game BTW.

Also, you're responsible for your own money - Responsible consumers should be responsible.
post #76 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

No.

Maybe 9-12 months out.

The entire game BTW.

Also, you're responsible for your own money - Responsible consumers should be responsible.



Okay, if you say so.

Also while responsible consumers are one thing, responsible providers should be another. When you see people throwing money at you and your project it might be fair to say thanks, but no thanks I/we already got what was needed.

I can't fault the man/company for taking money offered too much but if Star Citizen fails it will fail big - with all the repercussions that entails.
post #77 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by XenoRad View Post

Okay, if you say so.

Also while responsible consumers are one thing, responsible providers should be another. When you see people throwing money at you and your project it might be fair to say thanks, but no thanks I/we already got what was needed.

I can't fault the man/company for taking money offered too much but if Star Citizen fails it will fail big - with all the repercussions that entails.

...Been a subscriber since day 1...Over 2k worth of ships...In the IRC every day...We're looking at 9-12 months...Which ironically, has always been the end game since day 1...In fact, Chris is on record saying launch would be 2017...

Well, they didn't already get what was needed because their customers continued demanding more and more...So they obliged.

I do agree at some point or another, they should've told the customer, "no"...But, they didn't and here we are, 2017..

I think that's rather obvious.
post #78 of 88
After watching many hours of ATV and the likes I'm pretty sure that no amount of money would speed up the process of development.
I strongly suspect that the specific part that is hindering a release is the network code/load. It seems as if they are trying things that noone tried to make work before in that area. Chris Roberts mentioned several times that they are trying to lessen the network load/calls by putting assets in boxes in boxes in boxes (f.e. a character in a room in a ship) but I suspect that still to be a huge task.
This is also a kind of task where having more people work on it will not necessarily speed up the process.

With that in mind I can understand that they spend money on things that could make you think they spend carelessly (f.e. more and more ships, new offices etc) but in the end stuff like more variety in 3D assets will help make the game feel more alive.


My biggest concern when looking at this game is that they might have underestimated what they can do with "a game engine" to make the vision work. This is the only threat to getting this game into existence that I can see since I'm sure investors would still be easily found if financials actually go south.
Edited by f1LL - 7/19/16 at 5:18am
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post #79 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by prava View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ILoveHighDPI View Post

The big disconnect between what we see now and what we all heard and read in 2012 is that Chris expected "maybe" three million dollars from crowdfunding, and had private investors to cover the rest of a $25 million development budget.

If you start with a plan for $25 million and end up with over four times more, from crowdfunding alone, the idea of sticking to the original plan would be almost as wasteful as what the naysayers "imagine" is going on. Why waste four years of your life developing something so limited in scope when you've already been given the money to do something far better?
This is the wild west of game development, no-one could have possibly anticipated what was going to happen, and no-one could possibly have been fully prepared for it.
Squadron 42 is the the most critical immediate goal, it's the middle ground between fanciful dreams and shipping a product, hopefully they can deliver relatively soon.

And we know they had investors behind because.... they say so?

Also, if you start with a budget for $25 million and end up with $100 million... congrats, you have made a $75M profit. How could people ever not be happy when they get what they paid for, in time? Instead, what we have now is a product that keeps getting bigger just as much as it keeps getting delayed. Overall, what some of you don't see is that the longer the chain gets the more money Mr Roberts getss. Whatever happens with this game, whether it is ever released or not, he has cashed out long ago.

Which is why crowdfunding is so dangerous: you are paying for a product before it is even made... which means that because there is no incentive to ever finish it, some companies don't bother. In this case, Star Citizen is probably at the top of its potential revenue. Do I have to tell you what will happen once money stops flowing? And that will happen, eventually, specially at their expenditure level... unless they can wrap up the products and deliver them very, very soon. And maybe get an influx of revenue while doing so.

It's just common sense that you can't make a decent modern game on a three million dollar budget, and given how new crowdfunding was in 2012, and that Star Citizen is the only crowdfunded anything ever to make more than a couple of million, it's safe to say that crowdfunding was not intended to be the primary source of funding.

You're right that crowdfunded projects always come with the risk of someone running away with all the money, and that's why the only way this could possibly happen is with Chris Roberts.
Chances are most of the people who take this project seriously already have a long history with Chris. People have been playing his games for decades, we like everything he's done and we want more, hopefully we keep getting new Squadron 42 missions for decades to come.
Which is just another reason why this starting phase has to be done right, I'm betting that the work being done on Star Citizen now will be the basis for some of the best "new" experiences to be had for decades to come.
post #80 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by prava View Post

To be honest I did pre-pay my keybard. I paid for it in december and just received it two days ago. It came from a crowdfunding campaign, no less. And the thing got delayed several times. Of course it isn't comparable to what Star Citizen is doing, of course.

I of course apologize for being wrong. We cannot assume we know anything of others... Good day.

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