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[pcgames] Zen engineering samples in the wild. Units up to the 32 core are being tested. - Page 11

post #101 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Particle View Post

You don't appear to have understood his post.

I do. And it is simple.

He claims that by adding cores, you get more IPS, because IPC is constant.
Yet it is a false statement.
If a CPU does X amount of MIPS, it means it can use that X amount only under full load. Meaning an 8 core CPU running at 100% will pull X amount of MIPS.
But a CPU running at 50% of its ability, is only running 50% of its MIPS.
Now if you claim what I said is false (like he does), you have no understanding in computers what-so-ever.

Personally in my line of work, I measure MIPS of a mainframe system (which the little guy I replied to is probably a client to). MIPS is important, but if your system doesn't run at 100%, it doesn't really use all that MIPS. And if you increase the CPU model and get more IPC, you are actually using less MIPS but gain more performance.

This is a fact, not fiction (unlike the little boy claims it is).

Now, back on the subject, he claims that if he runs GTA5 on a single core vs 4 cores, he increases the IPS, and gain performance. And that is true. Yet you can potentially add 4 more cores and potentially gain even more IPS and more performance.
The problem with that, is that your CPU isn't at 100%.

Lets look at his silly example.
Lets say you have a CPU with 100 IPS per core, or 1 IPC per clock at 100hz (100 clock ticks per second).
So if you are running at one core with 100% usability, you are running at 100 IPS. If you are running it at 50% usability, you are running at 50 IPS.
Now if you run in 4 cores, you are running at 400 IPS. But that is only if you are running at 100%. If you are running at 50%, you are only running 200 IPS.

Now if you instead run 2xIPC per clock.
Now that CPU is running at 200 IPS on a single core and the game still uses 1 core at 100%. The same amount as 4 cores at 50%. No change to clocks or core count.
Now if you add another core, you gain 400 IPS by increasing just the IPC.
He claim that all you need to do is add cores, and IPC is meaningless But, it is not true. Because if you run 32 cores and the CPU is only being used at 4 cores, you are running a potential 3200 IPS, at 400 IPS, again, while instead going to higher IPC and half the cores, you could run more, for less. The design of the chip can be smaller as you don't need as many cores, which means less internal memory etc etc.

That is the point. Cores are meaningless unless you can really use them. And we have seen time and time (and time and time) again that increasing cores is meaningless in most games (with very few exceptions), while increasing IPC gives immediate performance gain.
This is why a 6700K overclocked runs just as good as a 6950X overclocked in games. Because the cores are just not as utilised, and the higher IPC of skylake makes a lot of difference. Same with an i3 6100 (2 cores with HT) vs a fx 8320 (8 full cores).

IPC vs IPS is only good if you are actually using a CPU to its full potential. If you aren't, you are wasting design and money, and IPC is so much more important.

If you really want to understand MIPS and IPC, I suggest read IBM books about CPU performance and core performance, and mainframe CPU models, to really understand how it works.
I can bet my behind on the fact that the little boy is only copy-pasting what he reads on wiki, and have never, ever, understood the meaning behind it, or even actually tested it in real life.
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post #102 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marios145 View Post

Hi.



i5 2500k = 16,32fps
i7 2600k = 21,41fps
i5 3570k = 20,15fps
i7 3770k = 24,71fps
fx 8350 = 24,76fps


The last 8core amd pushed, was in 2012, those are its competitors, it wasn't slower in video encoding and/or multithreaded apps, it was just more power hungry.
Power consumption was always the issue with bulldozer architecture, it wasn't performance, that's why amd doesnt bother making 8core SR/EV, if they consumed <100W it would be a whole different story.
AT THE TIME it was a very good choice if you didnt care about power, but here you are, arguing about ~4 year old tech

Hello.
GTA5 example he gave, says hello as well.


I3-4130 2 core / 4 threads > 8370E 8 core with so much higher IPS.
2500K 3.3ghz 4 core = FX 9590 4.7ghz 8 core with also so much higher IPS.

This shows that IPS is not be all have all.

His example based on synthetic numbers (IPS) and theoretically putting it into gaming performance, showed a complete opposite result.
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post #103 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robenger View Post

Server stuff should launch Q1 2017, desktop should launch before that according to the call.


I even summarized it for you earlier to which you accused me of spreading FUD...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slomo4shO View Post

Desktop Zen will not be available until 2017. May have limited inventory launch in late Q4 2016.


Now that you are provided the proof, you still can't seem to follow along rolleyes.gif
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post #104 of 212
The way I see it, the idea of Instructions per second Is more useful than Instructions per clock (because then you don't need clockspeed for comparisons), but neither is very useful for picking a processor for most personal computers.

I think we more need something like IPS per core or IPS per thread.. because when it comes to calculating things that are interdependent (like games) the thing that determines how slow it feels is the core or thread that you end up waiting for. So you want the fastest IPS per thread / core and enough threads / cores to do the job in the time desired.

I think the number of cores to want is more like the amount of ram to buy.. what matters is having enough to not run short, most of the time having an excess doesn't help you.
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post #105 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post



His example based on synthetic numbers (IPS) and theoretically putting it into gaming performance, showed a complete opposite result.

I see arguments about IPC / IPS and what not... all these claims assume the software is able to capitalize on multiple cores by balancing its load perfectly. I'm no expert on other peoples code but in my experience most games aren't fully optimized to use multiple cores properly. Maybe DX12 will change that and maybe it wont.

Point is, for a general purpose processor you'll use for gaming (and other uses) you absolutely want strong single threaded performance, or IPC, or single core IPS if you prefer. And you'll also want multiple cores. I believe six cores appears to be the cutoff at the point in time. Trying to compare an extreme of one scenario, with the extreme of the other is rather pointless.
post #106 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slomo4shO View Post

I even summarized it for you earlier to which you accused me of spreading FUD...
Now that you are provided the proof, you still can't seem to follow along rolleyes.gif

Sorry if I don't trust random dudes on the internet.
I do follow just not sure I agree with the interpretation as your synopsis is wrong. You can be condescending all you want but it doesn't change the fact that when she's discussing availability in 2017 she doesn't specify whether or not she was talking about server or desktop.
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post #107 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Patekar View Post

I see arguments about IPC / IPS and what not... all these claims assume the software is able to capitalize on multiple cores by balancing its load perfectly. I'm no expert on other peoples code but in my experience most games aren't fully optimized to use multiple cores properly. Maybe DX12 will change that and maybe it wont.

Point is, for a general purpose processor you'll use for gaming (and other uses) you absolutely want strong single threaded performance, or IPC, or single core IPS if you prefer. And you'll also want multiple cores. I believe six cores appears to be the cutoff at the point in time. Trying to compare an extreme of one scenario, with the extreme of the other is rather pointless.

yes, there is always at least one thread which is called the primary thread.
it is the thread which is in charge of what other threads should be doing, without this thread the other threads will be working blind.
you could put it in a way that its a team captain in-charge of a group of misfits.
if the captain is slow then he wouldn't be able to handle many misfits at once, resulting to misfits doing whatever they want without any positive result.


to a practical usage case, we should have a processor that has a very good single-thread performance, while being capable of hosting as many threads as possible.

this implies that we can just use 4cores with a 3way hyper-thread, e.g. a 4C/16T processor like intel uses on their xeon phi farms.
to be precise, xeon phi uses a core configuration that can host 4threads per core at once.

on the other hand, they could also resort to using the big.LITTLE architecture in which they pair 2 big cores with 4 small cores, resulting in a 2C+4c/6T processor.
Edited by epic1337 - 7/22/16 at 3:16pm
post #108 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

yes, there is always at least one thread which is called the primary thread.
it is the thread which is in charge of what other threads should be doing, without this thread the other threads will be working blind.
you could put it in a way that its a team captain in-charge of a group of misfits.
if the captain is slow then he wouldn't be able to handle many misfits at once, resulting to misfits doing whatever they want without any positive result.

While often true, this is not necessarily a mandatory feature of multithreaded software architectures.

For instance, I once worked on a mutithreaded file transfer system where work was submitted to and fetched from mutexed queues by any of potentially dozens of threads. The end result is that it doesn't matter which thread is submitting or fetching work to chew on and this allows for tasks to be very widely threaded and distributed despite the lack of central coordination by a single thread.

Of interest to the conversation though, mutual exclusion at the control points does mean that only one thread at a time, albeit any random thread that wants to, is allowed to execute the logic that accesses the work queue. That means that work distribution is at most capped to that which would be possible with a single thread even though the code is explicitly multithreaded for all tasks. Since a quick read or write with that object happens in nanoseconds or microseconds and accesses are relatively infrequent, the practical implication is that there is enough throughput to feed dozens or hundreds of threads successfully.

Not all tasks can be split up this way, but many computationally expensive or temporally expensive tasks can.
post #109 of 212
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post #110 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Particle View Post

While often true, this is not necessarily a mandatory feature of multithreaded software architectures.

For instance, I once worked on a mutithreaded file transfer system where work was submitted to and fetched from mutexed queues by any of potentially dozens of threads. The end result is that it doesn't matter which thread is submitting or fetching work to chew on and this allows for tasks to be very widely threaded and distributed despite the lack of central coordination by a single thread.

Of interest to the conversation though, mutual exclusion at the control points does mean that only one thread at a time, albeit any random thread that wants to, is allowed to execute the logic that accesses the work queue. That means that work distribution is at most capped to that which would be possible with a single thread even though the code is explicitly multithreaded for all tasks. Since a quick read or write with that object happens in nanoseconds or microseconds and accesses are relatively infrequent, the practical implication is that there is enough throughput to feed dozens or hundreds of threads successfully.

Not all tasks can be split up this way, but many computationally expensive or temporally expensive tasks can.

Actually how well work is distributed is determined by the work itself. Not all tasks can be run in parallel so easily, and in gaming you have several different kinds of tasks running that ultimately require some sort of synchronization.. like rendering, physics, input control, yadda yadda. DirectX 12 slash Vulkan doesn't change that.. it only removes a mutex over the hardware. Or that's how I understand it.. I write scientific and industrial software, not games.

My point wasn't that standard software design needs a main thread (or that a main thread would have a large workload). My point is more that a general purpose CPU for a gaming machine should be able to run different kinds of software with different kinds of load distribution. Some games may be fully optimized to utilize 6+ cores evenly, and others may be written with a heavy rendering thread in DX9 (looking at you guild wars 2). Ultimately if you don't want headaches you want to maximize single threaded performance and core count within the scope of your budget.

or TL;DR, we can't assume all applications are optimized well.
Edited by Lee Patekar - 7/22/16 at 3:08pm
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