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[pcgames] Zen engineering samples in the wild. Units up to the 32 core are being tested. - Page 13

post #121 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshuaB123 View Post

I feel the same way as you buddy, I'm REALLY hoping AMD comes out swinging this year again like they did with the Fury X that used HBM.. Zen will make Intel rethink their overpriced 6950X prices, and I didn't even know that it was based off a 15 core die that just had 5 cores disabled, what a ripoff, and 750$ for two extra cores. Same thing for NVidia and their new Titan X, not that big of a difference compared to the old Titan and it's not even the full Pascal GPU, it's simply a renamed 1080Ti but for 1300$ or even more. So yeah, I'm really leaning towards AMD this year so I can take advantage of Freesync on a 144hz monitor opposed to paying an extra 300$ for NVidia's overpriced G-SYNC Module, if AMD never comes back, Intel and NVidia will continue wrecking people's wallets without a fear they won't buy their product.

The i7-6950X is NOT based on the 15-core die...its based on the LCC 10-core die as evidenced by its R0 stepping (an MCC based chip would be M0 stepping).

As for the i7-6950X and the new Titan X, they are marketed to those who want the best and are willing to pay for it (which isn't you). If you don't like the prices, don't buy the parts, simple as that. I'm glad such parts are offered to give those people who want the best a chance to buy it, rather than being forced to made do with weaker, crappier parts.
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post #122 of 212
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Originally Posted by GnarlyCharlie View Post

Gamers seem to be enthusiasts, and enthusiasts like new & shiny, and Zen has certainly drummed up a good bit of enthusiasm, but would a gaming system be the place for a Zen? Or maybe it's just timing. I bought an 8 core Intel chip because of the promises of DX12 utilizing multi core CPUs, a year later and it hasn't happened. Maybe Zen will spur the developers into finally unleashing that portion of the DX12 feature set where Intel chips couldn't. That said, I couldn't go back to a quad core chip, I like what the extra 4 do, and I bet a bunch of new Zen users will, too. thumb.gif
I think it's a time/place/where the hell are the improvements thing for most consumer class gamers. At best the IPC improvements after 4 generations amount to 20%. In which case the consumer is left wondering, ok so after 4 generations, you could have just added a single core to the CPU and given me the same product you're trying to sell me today at a higher price? Oh and you forgot to mention you've shrunk your die from 220mm^2 to 120mm^2. So you've been increasing your margins while stagnating development, great! Anything but you, zen looks pretty, 8 cores 16T? close enough IPC? Sign me up.
post #123 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Patekar View Post

I'm not arguing that load can be perfectly balanced, that would contradict all my other posts. What I am saying is that a homogeneous CPU design with multiple identical cores, with hyper-threading, is preferable to a heterogeneous design with large and small cores. Its far simpler for software developers to design code that can be used on a wide range of hardware (from nehalem to skylake and to zen) than to optimize code for every processor family and architecture.

You can use specialized cpu architectures like 4+2 on mobile because its a closed software ecosystem. But in the PC space such a special-case processor will not be utilized correctly by older software nor by newer software. I feel this reality, in part, explains the failure of the bulldozer architecture. The intel compiler fiasco certainly didn't help matters.

For a general purpose CPU to run a wide range of software and games, you absolutely want the best single threaded performance across as many cores as you can afford. Perhaps one day load balancing in games will be much better (like the DX12 graph you showed) but alas the cynic in me expects most titles to be badly optimized when it comes to load balancing.

the software we use today can already discern which core is better to use, its why they know which is a hyper-thread and which is a real core.
rather, its much more effective to tailor the processor to the actual load that are being brought.
in this case the baseline would be 4 big cores and 4 little cores, the basis being 4cores is the starting point of diminishing returns.


bulldozer wasn't a big.LITTLE architecture, its rather two little cores fused together to share resource.
theoretically the resources of two little cores when utilized as a single core will have the same throughput as one big core, but it simply didn't.
post #124 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

the software we use today can already discern which core is better to use, its why they know which is a hyper-thread and which is a real core.
rather, its much more effective to tailor the processor to the actual load that are being brought.
in this case the baseline would be 4 big cores and 4 little cores, the basis being 4cores is the starting point of diminishing returns.

Lets agree to disagree. Fortunately from what I've seen of the Zen architecture, AMD agrees with me :^)
post #125 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Patekar View Post

Lets agree to disagree. Fortunately from what I've seen of the Zen architecture, AMD agrees with me :^)

the fact that hyper-threading is being applied agrees with my conjecture, they're fitting more threads even if they're slower than the main cores.
post #126 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

the fact that hyper-threading is being applied agrees with my conjecture, they're fitting more threads even if they're slower than the main cores.

That's not the purpose of hyper threading.. :^)
post #127 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Patekar View Post

That's not the purpose of hyper threading.. :^)

the purpose of hyper threading is to utilize what remains of the resource in the main core, making each core more efficient in managing resources.
which means its also much slower than the main thread, otherwise the threads would forcibly clash with each other for resource.

if what your point is having as many "fast" cores as possible is what they should do, then they should abandon hyper-threading and simply add more cores instead.
post #128 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Patekar View Post

Fortunately from what I've seen of the Zen architecture, AMD agrees with me :^)

What exactly have you seen?
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post #129 of 212
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Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

the purpose of hyper threading is to utilize what remains of the resource in the main core, making each core more efficient in managing resources.
which means its also much slower than the main thread, otherwise the threads would forcibly clash with each other for resource.

Hyper-threading doesn't create a smaller core... it makes two logical cores which are handled by a single physical core. This is great if you want to crunch numbers efficiently, but its rather damaging for time critical applications... because the core doesn't prioritize one thread over the other. Its up to the software developer to set his affinity masks properly for each thread of importance. But only if he's writing a time critical application. Most software developers don't apply affinity masks, they just set thread priorities and let windows (or unix or QNX) handle the scheduling across all cores.

Having a 4+2 architecture isn't much help if the software doesn't support it.. unless the cores have magical intuition over what thread needs more attention. For a 4+2 to be viable you'll need mass market adoption.. it would need to be explicitly supported and utilized in not only the operating system, but also any API used in said application (for a game I'm thinking DirectX and video drivers as well as the operating system).

I'm not seeing that happen anytime soon. But hey, I could be wrong :^)
post #130 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Patekar View Post

Hyper-threading doesn't create a smaller core... it makes two logical cores which are handled by a single physical core. This is great if you want to crunch numbers efficiently, but its rather damaging for time critical applications... because the core doesn't prioritize one thread over the other. Its up to the software developer to set his affinity masks properly for each thread of importance. But only if he's writing a time critical application. Most software developers don't apply affinity masks, they just set thread priorities and let windows (or unix or QNX) handle the scheduling across all cores.

Having a 4+2 architecture isn't much help if the software doesn't support it.. unless the cores have magical intuition over what thread needs more attention. For a 4+2 to be viable you'll need mass market adoption.. it would need to be explicitly supported and utilized in not only the operating system, but also any API used in said application (for a game I'm thinking DirectX and video drivers as well as the operating system).

I'm not seeing that happen anytime soon. But hey, I could be wrong :^)

where did i say hyper-threading creates a smaller core?

thats why its more beneficial to simply add more cores, or even a bunch of smaller cores as they're an independent resource that can benefit the other threads, instead of simply using hyper-threading.
Edited by epic1337 - 7/23/16 at 11:28am
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Rumors and Unconfirmed Articles › [pcgames] Zen engineering samples in the wild. Units up to the 32 core are being tested.