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[pcgames] Zen engineering samples in the wild. Units up to the 32 core are being tested. - Page 16

post #151 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by kylzer View Post

Link?

http://www.overclock3d.net/news/cpu_mainboard/der8auer_delids_intel_s_core_i7-6950x_broadwell-e_cpu/1

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?s=d96a3e5d35e192878afdcf3d5a5ac327&p=38211676&postcount=3737

http://ark.intel.com/products/94456/Intel-Core-i7-6950X-Processor-Extreme-Edition-25M-Cache-up-to-3_50-GHz#@ordering
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post #152 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

dx12 scaling stops dead at 6 threads as well

Link? I see from time to time core scaling gaming tests popping by and they always leave much to be desired. Eg. once they find that from a certain CPU core count and up there are no more FPS produced , they declare it as the end of scaling without checking whether they are actually maxing out the GPU used at that core count.
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post #153 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuivamaa View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

dx12 scaling stops dead at 6 threads as well

Link? I see from time to time core scaling gaming tests popping by and they always leave much to be desired. Eg. once they find that from a certain CPU core count and up there are no more FPS produced , they declare it as the end of scaling without checking whether they are actually maxing out the GPU used at that core count.

Would downclocking the cpu be a good way of avoiding that issue?
Using the same rig someone could for example try

6 cores vs 8 cores at 1 ghz

6 cores at 2 ghz vs 8 cores at 1.5 ghz

What is out there that can make use of DX 12 besides Timespy?

Anyone set up for DX 12 care to give that a go ?
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post #154 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnek View Post

Regarding this:
I was simply questioning whether you would consider the 1080 and 5960X "weaker, crappier parts" before the 6950X existed and the Titan X made its presence known. If no, then indeed they only became "weaker and crappier" by virtue of both companies releasing another SKU with even higher performance, and not because they intrinsically lacked performance.

I said 10-100x for corporations because of the sheer volume of high margin products they purchase. An individual may buy one (or even a few) of a $1700 6950X, but a corporation could easily buy several hundred thousand worth of the $4115 Xeon 2699v4's to fill their 22U racks. wink.gif

A Quadro would only "offer the best of both worlds" if one could take advantage of its professionally oriented features, as well as the extended technical support. Otherwise you're simply throwing away good money for nothing. And if you need a custom loop to keep the thermals from spiraling out of control on an overclocked 2699v4, then again that precludes a large portion of even the enthusiasts. Plus like I said, this is without even taking the exorbitant price into consideration, which would deter all but the 0.01% of enthusiasts. Hence why I disagreed with your assertion that "many" people would switch over.

The 1080 was known to be the small Pascal GPU and it was a well-known fact that the Titan version would be following. It's why many people held out for the Titan version of Pascal. So yes, it was a known "weaker and crappier part." As for the i7-5960X, it was an improvement over the 6-core crap from the past that Intel had the balls to call an "Extreme Edition", but still grossly inferior to what they are capable of making. It's why myself and many others have been nagging all levels of Intel to produce a better unlocked chip or to unlock the top SKU of Xeon. It's why I flew to IDF2015 to ask Genevieve Bell and the Intel fellows directly why Intel refuses to unlock the Xeon and was met with a deer-in-the-headlights look as she deferred the question. Efforts by myself and others (who want and need an unlocked processor with a higher core count) to convince Intel to release a more powerful Extreme Edition are one of the reasons why the i7-6950X exists at all. So yes, I considered the i7-5960X a "weaker and crappier part" prior to the i7-6950X.

A Quadro offers many professional features such as that Technical Support that are very useful during the day when one is using it to earn the bread and butter. At night, when using a card like that to game, those features aren't a concern, but being able to support SLi on a homebuilt system would be. It's being able to use the Quadro for both professional applications and still do occasional gaming that would make it a "best of both worlds" part. You don't have to take advantage of its feature all the time in order for it to perform both roles.

An E5-2699 V4 would not require a custom loop to keep it cool, but a custom loop would allow someone to fully maximize the chip's potential. A good AIO like the H110i would be fine to allow someone to get most of the performance potential from the chip. You could overclock 6-cores to 4.2GHz to handle the single-threaded tasks and then overclock the remaining cores to 3.2GHz and keep increasing the clocks slowly until thermals start to climb to uncomfortable levels. People paying a high price for such a chip are incredibly unlikely to abuse it and would just use whatever headroom the processor comfortably has under water cooling. Whatever the final clock speed ends up being, it ends up being. The point is that there is a great deal of performance being left on the table and if it were able to be used, it would attract many users who've disregarded the chip as a solution due to it's drawbacks at stock clock speeds and TDP.

Are there a lot of people who'd use the Quadro and Xeon in this way? Probably not a huge amount, but some would. The very high margin nature of these parts makes any additional sales worth big additional profits to these companies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kylzer View Post

Link?

http://ark.intel.com/products/94456/Intel-Core-i7-6950X-Processor-Extreme-Edition-25M-Cache-up-to-3_50-GHz#@ordering

Under Steppings/S-specs...
Edited by lutjens - 7/24/16 at 10:56am
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post #155 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshuaB123 View Post

An E5-2699 V4 would not require a custom loop to keep it cool, but a custom loop would allow someone to fully maximize the chip's potential. A good AIO like the H110i would be fine to allow someone to get most of the performance potential from the chip. You could overclock 6-cores to 4.2GHz to handle the single-threaded tasks and then overclock the remaining cores to 3.2GHz and keep increasing the clocks slowly until thermals start to climb to uncomfortable levels. People paying a high price for such a chip are incredibly unlikely to abuse it and would just use whatever headroom the processor comfortably has under water cooling. Whatever the final clock speed ends up being, it ends up being. The point is that there is a great deal of performance being left on the table and if it were able to be used, it would attract many users who've disregarded the chip as a solution due to it's drawbacks at stock clock speeds and TDP.

I know people would would be completely fine requiring a 2000W chiller keeping the CPU at 10°C, if you can use the performance budget is sometimes not too important. Unlocking the top SKU has zero downsides that I can see, there isn't anything above it to cannibalize sales from, unless Intel wants to be able to release an upgrade in the future that is simply an increase in the TDP.
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post #156 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by lutjens View Post

The 1080 was known to be the small Pascal GPU and it was a well-known fact that the Titan version would be following. It's why many people held out for the Titan version of Pascal. So yes, it was a known "weaker and crappier part." As for the i7-5960X, it was an improvement over the 6-core crap from the past that Intel had the balls to call an "Extreme Edition", but still grossly inferior to what they are capable of making. It's why myself and many others have been nagging all levels of Intel to produce a better unlocked chip or to unlock the top SKU of Xeon. It's why I flew to IDF2015 to ask Genevieve Bell and the Intel fellows directly why Intel refuses to unlock the Xeon and was met with a deer-in-the-headlights look as she deferred the question. Efforts by myself and others (who want and need an unlocked processor with a higher core count) to convince Intel to release a more powerful Extreme Edition are one of the reasons why the i7-6950X exists at all. So yes, I considered the i7-5960X a "weaker and crappier part" prior to the i7-6950X.

The current Tesla P100 uses GP100 which is a 610mm² chip with a 2:1 FP32:FP64 ratio and comes with 16GB HBM2. No matter how you slice it, the new Titan X is still a cut below that, so does that mean the new Titan X is still weaker and crappier part?

In any case that's certainly your prerogative of course, but also why I said the elitism was seeping through. The part in bold just adds to that. Excuse my bluntness but unless you're a prominent figure in the tech industry or you have a great amount of clout or really good PR value, are you really that self-conceited to think Intel would change its marketing strategy to cater to small minority?
Quote:
A Quadro offers many professional features such as that Technical Support that are very useful during the day when one is using it to earn the bread and butter. At night, when using a card like that to game, those features aren't a concern, but being able to support SLi on a homebuilt system would be. It's being able to use the Quadro for both professional applications and still do occasional gaming that would make it a "best of both worlds" part. You don't have to take advantage of its feature all the time in order for it to perform both roles.

I didn't say you had to take advantage of the features "all the time", simply that if you didn't (ie not at all), a Quadro would be a complete waste of money.
Quote:
An E5-2699 V4 would not require a custom loop to keep it cool, but a custom loop would allow someone to fully maximize the chip's potential. A good AIO like the H110i would be fine to allow someone to get most of the performance potential from the chip. You could overclock 6-cores to 4.2GHz to handle the single-threaded tasks and then overclock the remaining cores to 3.2GHz and keep increasing the clocks slowly until thermals start to climb to uncomfortable levels. People paying a high price for such a chip are incredibly unlikely to abuse it and would just use whatever headroom the processor comfortably has under water cooling. Whatever the final clock speed ends up being, it ends up being. The point is that there is a great deal of performance being left on the table and if it were able to be used, it would attract many users who've disregarded the chip as a solution due to it's drawbacks at stock clock speeds and TDP.

If you're paying $4K for a CPU, it would be mind-boggling to leave potentially a lot of performance on the table simply because you couldn't keep thermals under control. And unless you overclock two cores to 4.7 or thereabouts, you're still compromising somewhat on single threaded performance. IIRC you mentioned that Intel's response to why they didn't unlock the top Xeon SKU was "because games don't need that many cores". Yes they equated "enthusiast" with "gamer", but it also shows they either didn't consider the market significant enough for such a product to warrant its release, or they simply didn't care period. I think it's fair to assume that Intel of all companies would not give up a lucrative market segment to increase their margins if the opportunity presented itself, so they must have other reasons for such a decision.

And as I mentioned in my earlier post, the $4K price alone would act as a huge deterrent for most, regardless of the performance potential. So no I still disagree it would attract "many" users.
Quote:
Are there a lot of people who'd use the Quadro and Xeon in this way? Probably not a huge amount, but some would. The very high margin nature of these parts makes any additional sales worth big additional profits to these companies.

Well I don't disagree that a small minority would, but minority =/= some, and some definitely =/= many. tongue.gif
Edited by magnek - 7/24/16 at 11:26am
post #157 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post

there isn't anything above it to cannibalize sales from

Only sales for the next round of marginally faster processors. Intel is all about maximizing sales in competition with its own products, as you can see with for example the way they segment the market for 4 core cpus, as well.
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post #158 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnek View Post

If you're paying $4K for a CPU, it would be mind-boggling to leave potentially a lot of performance on the table simply because you couldn't keep thermals under control. And unless you overclock two cores to 4.7 or thereabouts, you're still compromising somewhat on single threaded performance. IIRC you mentioned that Intel's response to why they didn't unlock the top Xeon SKU was "because games don't need that many cores". Yes they equated "enthusiast" with "gamer", but it also shows they either didn't consider the market significant enough for such a product to warrant its release, or they simply didn't care period. I think it's fair to assume that Intel of all companies would not give up a lucrative market segment to increase their margins if the opportunity presented itself, so they must have other reasons for such a decision.

Not that many sure, but selling more $4000 parts is always good, isn't it? Just because games do not need that many cores does not mean gamers wouldn't get it either. There are a lot of computer geeks with money at this point, just because I can is a good reason. As it is now the Zeons all offer these types significantly worse performance. Those willing to spend a lot for a better specs with no real world improvement are almost never willing to spend a lot for better specs with worse real world performance. Besides, max GHz is an obvious spec.

Yor're right, it seems like there must be some other reasons. Maybe power draw through the motherboard, the board makers do not want to design a board with a 1kW socket? It seems like Asus would be happy to for $1000+ a board. Maybe the market really is too small. frown.gif
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post #159 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post

I know people would would be completely fine requiring a 2000W chiller keeping the CPU at 10°C, if you can use the performance budget is sometimes not too important. Unlocking the top SKU has zero downsides that I can see, there isn't anything above it to cannibalize sales from, unless Intel wants to be able to release an upgrade in the future that is simply an increase in the TDP.

You just answered your own question. There are no downsides until you consider unlocking the top SKU basically means cannibalizing future sales on marginally improved products.

I bet this is the #1 or perhaps sole reason why Intel doesn't unlock the top Xeon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post

Not that many sure, but selling more $4000 parts is always good, isn't it? Just because games do not need that many cores does not mean gamers wouldn't get it either. There are a lot of computer geeks with money at this point, just because I can is a good reason. As it is now the Zeons all offer these types significantly worse performance. Those willing to spend a lot for a better specs with no real world improvement are almost never willing to spend a lot for better specs with worse real world performance. Besides, max GHz is an obvious spec.

Yor're right, it seems like there must be some other reasons. Maybe power draw through the motherboard, the board makers do not want to design a board with a 1kW socket? It seems like Asus would be happy to for $1000+ a board. Maybe the market really is too small. frown.gif

I'd say that's a non-issue really because anyone who's willing to splurge $4K on a CPU is willing to splurge on anything that would enable its full potential.
Edited by magnek - 7/24/16 at 11:41am
post #160 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnek View Post

You just answered your own question. There are no downsides until you consider unlocking the top SKU basically means cannibalizing future sales on marginally improved products.

I bet this is the #1 or perhaps sole reason why Intel doesn't unlock the top Xeon.

I hate that I have to agree with you, that probably is the entire reason. frown.gif

Hopefully AMD uses an unlocked 32 core Zen as a flagship, advertising with the top CPU if you will. That could actually get some attention on them again, I know I would be interested in the top overclocks on a 32 core Haswell Xeon, if such existed. Not for any good reason, but it would be very cool.
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Rumors and Unconfirmed Articles › [pcgames] Zen engineering samples in the wild. Units up to the 32 core are being tested.