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[pcgames] Zen engineering samples in the wild. Units up to the 32 core are being tested. - Page 17

post #161 of 212
As an armchair economist, I admire Intel's brutal efficiency in extracting pennies out of schmucks making profits hand over fist. But as a consumer I hate their conduct with a passion.
post #162 of 212
Quote:
I didn't say you had to take advantage of the features "all the time", simply that if you didn't (ie not at all), a Quadro would be a complete waste of money

What I read was that the Quadro can't possibly offer the best of both worlds if you're not taking advantage of it professionally oriented features, which I why I made the statement I did. A professional could use them during the day, but when gaming they don't matter. In any event, better to have them and not need them than to need them and not have them.
Quote:
The current Tesla P100 uses GP100 which is a 610mm² chip with a 2:1 FP32:FP64 ratio and comes with 16GB HBM2. No matter how you slice it, the new Titan X is still a cut below that, so does that mean the new Titan X is still weaker and crappier part?

It is, but there are no firm public plans to release a Titan part based on the GP100. There is a possibility of a Quadro part based on it though, which would make Quadro SLi support on non-OEM systems even more worthwhile, as now the Quadro would offer definitive performance advantages over the GeForce..

Quote:
In any case that's certainly your prerogative of course, but also why I said the elitism was seeping through. The part in bold just adds to that. Excuse my bluntness but unless you're a prominent figure in the tech industry or you have a great amount of clout or really good PR value, are you really that self-conceited to think Intel would change its marketing strategy to cater to small minority?

If some people are consistently and persistently advocating for a more powerful flagship product that they're willing to pay a great deal more for (that doesn't cost that much more to produce), a company would be foolish to ignore them.
Quote:
If you're paying $4K for a CPU, it would be mind-boggling to leave potentially a lot of performance on the table simply because you couldn't keep thermals under control. And unless you overclock two cores to 4.7 or thereabouts, you're still compromising somewhat on single threaded performance. IIRC you mentioned that Intel's response to why they didn't unlock the top Xeon SKU was "because games don't need that many cores". Yes they equated "enthusiast" with "gamer", but it also shows they either didn't consider the market significant enough for such a product to warrant its release, or they simply didn't care period. I think it's fair to assume that Intel of all companies would not give up a lucrative market segment to increase their margins if the opportunity presented itself, so they must have other reasons for such a decision.

Such a chip wouldn't perform as good as say an i7-6700K in single-threaded apps, but it would close the gap significantly enough to make the benefits (of huge multi-threaded performance) much greater than the drawbacks (of a slight single-threaded performance disadvantage). They equated "enthusiast" with "gamer" but had no real definitive answer when I queried about mixed-workloads. I spoke to one of the Fellows following the session and he seemed intrigued at the possibility of having the top SKU unlocked and said he'd run it by the Xeon people. As for "other reasons" for such a decision, Intel considers it a "Xeon brand risk" (even though unlocking the E5-1600 series had no effect on the Xeon brand or harmed its reputation). The only realistic reason is to intentionally restrict performance.
Quote:
And as I mentioned in my earlier post, the $4K price alone would act as a huge deterrent for most, regardless of the performance potential. So no I still disagree it would attract "many" users.
Well I don't disagree that a small minority would, but minority =/= some, and some definitely =/= many. tongue.gif

I should have said many ultra high-end users (ie: folks buying i7-6950Xs)...not regular users.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnek View Post

You just answered your own question. There are no downsides until you consider unlocking the top SKU basically means cannibalizing future sales on marginally improved products.

I bet this is the #1 or perhaps sole reason why Intel doesn't unlock the top Xeon.
I'd say that's a non-issue really because anyone who's willing to splurge $4K on a CPU is willing to splurge on anything that would enable its full potential.

This is probably why, but still holds little justification, as the unlocked top future part would be purchased as well. Given that between the V3 and V4 chips 4 cores were added, what ultra high-end enthusiast wouldn't upgrade their chip to get those four cores?
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post #163 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

We've gotten to the point where the multithreaded performance of FX is very similar to the multithreaded performance of quad core i5's.

quad core skylake i5 actually beats Piledriver FX for x264 encoding which scales practically linearly with core count at this point.

i5 wins by a mile on everything that's not quite highly parallel by default, i3 often wins when they're not.

The most efficiently multithreaded games and engines show piledriver getting beaten by i5 and walked all over by faster CPU's.



I don't know what world you're living in, but it's nothing like mine

no 4790k on that chart because it's faster than all those.
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post #164 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevChelios View Post



such shine, much wow

FX is still trash for games

i see an amd chip almost matching a 1000 dollar intel extreme part and being slower than newer architectures.

what do you see?
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post #165 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by lutjens View Post

What I read was that the Quadro can't possibly offer the best of both worlds if you're not taking advantage of it professionally oriented features, which I why I made the statement I did. A professional could use them during the day, but when gaming they don't matter. In any event, better to have them and not need them than to need them and not have them.

If you're not taking advantage of the Quadro exclusive features, then it's not really offering any benefit over a GeForce part is it? My stance on that hasn't changed. Yes a professional could take advantage of an unlocked Quadro which I never disputed, but even an enthusiast gamer would be wasting money buying a Quadro when they could put that money towards a second card and doing a platform upgrade.

Btw you realize how specialized a Quadro's professional advantages are right? In fact it used to be that you could soft mod a GeForce to Quadro, and while the mod wasn't perfect, it had enough of an effect that nVidia decided to lock the GeForce parts at the hardware level. And that's when hard mods started popping up as well. Granted none of the GeFore parts have ECC memory like some of the Quadro cards do, but it just goes to show the whole Quadro/GeForce segmentation is largely artificial in order to protect their margins.
Quote:
It is, but there are no firm public plans to release a Titan part based on the GP100. There is a possibility of a Quadro part based on it though, which would make Quadro SLi support on non-OEM systems even more worthwhile, as now the Quadro would offer definitive performance advantages over the GeForce..

Right, but by your own standards the new Titan X would still be a weaker and crappier part. We also didn't know Intel had any firm public plans on releasing the 6950X until maybe about a month before release (yes we had rumors long before that, but they were just that, rumors).
Quote:
If some people are consistently and persistently advocating for a more powerful flagship product that they're willing to pay a great deal more for (that doesn't cost that much more to produce), a company would be foolish to ignore them.

Like I said, that would only be the case if those "some people" are prominent figures, have great clout or present really good PR value to Intel. Again, do you really think Intel would alter their product stack because of a handful of vocal computer enthusiasts who are otherwise unknown to the world?
Quote:
Such a chip wouldn't perform as good as say an i7-6700K in single-threaded apps, but it would close the gap significantly enough to make the benefits (of huge multi-threaded performance) much greater than the drawbacks (of a slight single-threaded performance disadvantage). They equated "enthusiast" with "gamer" but had no real definitive answer when I queried about mixed-workloads. I spoke to one of the Fellows following the session and he seemed intrigued at the possibility of having the top SKU unlocked and said he'd run it by the Xeon people. As for "other reasons" for such a decision, Intel considers it a "Xeon brand risk" (even though unlocking the E5-1600 series had no effect on the Xeon brand or harmed its reputation). The only realistic reason is to intentionally restrict performance. [

So as I, Tivan, and Asmodian have all pointed out, it's to protect their margins (ie business reasons).
Quote:
I should have said many ultra high-end users (ie: folks buying i7-6950Xs)...not regular users.

Fair enough.
Quote:
This is probably why, but still holds little justification, as the unlocked top future part would be purchased as well. Given that between the V3 and V4 chips 4 cores were added, what ultra high-end enthusiast wouldn't upgrade their chip to get those four cores?

Because locking down the top SKU allows Intel full control over just how much performance it wants to hand out for the future chip. I mean really, can you think of a non-business related reason why they'd not unlock the top SKU?
Edited by magnek - 7/24/16 at 2:06pm
post #166 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuivamaa View Post

Link? I see from time to time core scaling gaming tests popping by and they always leave much to be desired. Eg. once they find that from a certain CPU core count and up there are no more FPS produced , they declare it as the end of scaling without checking whether they are actually maxing out the GPU used at that core count.

There are API benchmarks without game logic loading the CPU or graphics bottlenecks. There's one built into 3dmark IIRC, and people did tests on it after the release all over review sites.
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post #167 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master__Shake View Post

what do you see?

battlefield 1 alpha likes lots of Ghz and cores, apparently it scales too well.
post #168 of 212
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

its funny.
You gave the CPU from the 90s, not me.
And by your exactly example, GTA5, a 8320 with higher IPS is getting beat by a lower IPS CPU. So clearly, IPS matters, because well, apparently the more IPS you have, the less gaming performance you have thumb.gif

IPS and IPC are both measured numbers. Syntethic numbers. There is no IPS for games and IPS for synthetic numbers. If you think there is, you are a bigger idiot than I thought biggrin.gif


Guys, there were no 086 chips in the 90's. There were IA16 AND IA32 but the x86 command set was left behind and had to rely on translation libraries (what's now called HAL in Windows) to operate on computers. All 64bit stuff except the Itanium is AM64 which does not native support IA16/IA32 at all. That's why we've got programs like "Dosbox" and "4dos" out there.
post #169 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master__Shake View Post

i see an amd chip almost matching a 1000 dollar intel extreme part and being slower than newer architectures.

what do you see?

That with the same GPU my FX-9590 would be about as fast as the very first LGA-1366 system I made in December 2008 in the Battlefield 1 Alpha.
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post #170 of 212
Not all that relevant, but this thread has very minimal hate goin on..... its nice but really confusing lol. Cant wait for real benchmarks to start popping up.
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Rumors and Unconfirmed Articles › [pcgames] Zen engineering samples in the wild. Units up to the 32 core are being tested.