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[Toms] EFF Sues U.S. Government So People Can Tinker With Their Electronic Devices - Page 4

post #31 of 36
I'm all for this, but why are people in here thinkinv this will cause them to not lose warranty for rooting their Android devices? You're modifying it with unofficial software and not using it as intended... This may make it not illegal, but it certainly won't help you keep your warranty, nor should it.
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post #32 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrzev View Post

Either way their product will be sold with those security holes. The big difference after this law is passed, when a company sets the price for its product, they will take it into consideration that it might be re-purposed for other things. A funny example is how FedEx or whatever company would deliver boxes for you to ship stuff with for free, and then people made furniture and random stuff with it. Example


I guess the way i see it, is that testing is one thing, but re-purposing a device is another. Kinda like white hat vs black hat. If your trying to validate if your modem is secure, thats one thing. If your modifing your modem so you can unlock the speed cap the ISP sets or unlocking all the chanels on your cable box is another.


I do agree with the fact that people should be able to tinker though. All i am saying is that companies need some time to switch over to this.

I'll only discuss the security implications, not the larger implications of 'owning' products without the right to fully utilize them which you seem to find all hunky dory. However, I do not understand how you can be so 'pro' company and revenues when you are the security victim in all this.

1- The products would not still be sold with security holes in them, because researchers wouldn't be risking the end of their lives as they know them to see if that baby monitor is really as secure as they claim it is. The personal risk you have to bear is staggering to try to help the greater good.

2- This hides the problem from the 'good' guys, because criminals are already using the vulnerabilities to their own ends. In addition, when 1 is conducted correctly, you can hold companies liable for the damages they cause, the REAL damages they cause from releasing insecure products.

3- Read #2 again, and really think about how ludicrous it is to allow companies to evade liability of wrongdoing by claiming copyright on the code, and putting researchers in prison for outing their mistakes, incompetence, and or apathy in securing products.

The law doesn't say anything about your motivations or goals, simply you are committing a felony by modifying or reverse engineering your property. This is affecting you, right now in a really bad way. Companies don't need time to adjust to this, they need to be held to higher standards immediately by independent security research.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brownbob06 View Post

I'm all for this, but why are people in here thinkinv this will cause them to not lose warranty for rooting their Android devices? You're modifying it with unofficial software and not using it as intended... This may make it not illegal, but it certainly won't help you keep your warranty, nor should it.

In regards to android devices, This.
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post #33 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avonosac View Post

The law doesn't say anything about your motivations or goals, simply you are committing a felony by modifying or reverse engineering your property.

This is what i am advocating though. YOU SHOULD be able to tinker for non commercial purposes. I agree completely that this is your device. You own a copy of their binary and the hardware it runs on. What I am against is taking a device, soldering something on top of it, and reselling the device. If you are modifying code you cant resell it, unless you remove\replace all of their code.

I agree the law in its current state causes issues with security risks. If you cant publicly state the security flaws in a system because of some legal thingy... thats a huge issue.

I argue about giving corporations time to adjust because they forecasted with that in place. This is heavily weighted on the Commercial aspect of the potential changes. If people cant resell their modifications and whatnot, then this is not much of an issue.


As a developer myself... i wonder the boundaries of what is right. If i want to update the Maps in my car, i would be modifying some of their stuff, but leaving a lot of theirs still in there. This should be fine for me to do, but would it be right for a car repair shop to charge me $100 for this instead of the $600 for the official version? Lots of Open source code stuff does not like you modifying their code unless your willing to publish your changes as well.

This brings up a question of what you own digitally. If you buy a video game and able to extract out the character models... are they your models? What exactly do you own? The disk itself? The cd key? You can trade the game, but you cant sell copies of it. If you took their character models and made your own game and used those, can you only sell 1 copy before having to pay royalties?
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post #34 of 36
well we indirectly voted this thing into effect. those lawmakers didnt come out of nowhere
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post #35 of 36
I think we need to pass a law that explicitly states that you can't be charged with piracy unless you do it for commercial practices, and that if you own a product you have the right to tamper and modify it - even the software as you wish.

And the computer hacking laws from the 80s need to be changed so that some uppity prosecutor won't charge you with a federal crime for using your Mom's Netflix password.
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post #36 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrzev View Post

What I am against is taking a device, soldering something on top of it, and reselling the device. If you are modifying code you cant resell it, unless you remove\replace all of their code.
...
I argue about giving corporations time to adjust because they forecasted with that in place. This is heavily weighted on the Commercial aspect of the potential changes. If people cant resell their modifications and whatnot, then this is not much of an issue.


As a developer myself... the rest of it...

I'll tackle these roughly in order and speak developer to developer because you seem to be conflating a whole bunch of things.

1) This is already illegal and there are laws against taking a design or hardware and reselling them as your own product without license. Modifying code or not, reselling the product is illegal. Note- This isn't to say that selling used products is illegal, what you seem to be suggesting is purchasing.. modifying and selling products as your own novel designs, which they aren't.

2) Mostly follows from the previous misunderstanding of the point of this law, because the benefits you want are already addressed in other sane laws. The worst portions of this law are not about money, which creates some cognitive dissonance as the law in its entirety is supposed to be about protecting copyright owners from IP theft.

3) You seem to be stuck on believing this is a rule against commercializing modifications, and again it isn't. There are already laws which protect against the resale of a hacked software like your maps example if the owner chose to pursue legal action. DCMA turned those laws on their head by upending the entire US legal system, reversing it, and essentially declaring the accused guilty until proven innocent.

4) With your games example, what you are suggesting is IP theft. They have created those assets for use within their game that you have licensed (you say bought incorrectly). You have no right to use those assets for anything but the expressed purpose of running the game. That isn't to say modifying the game is or should be considered illegal, you just have no right to use those assets as your own in any commercial way. In this case even running an open source MMO host using that IP, or using their textures on fan websites is in violation of the license. But again, this is a conflated issue and has very little to do with the real problem with this section of the DMCA which essentially makes it a felony to even look at the code which is running on a physical device you purchased. In other words the code is not the product, but it is part of it and you aren't allowed to look at it now. The other major problem with this issue now is companies have the ability to artificially terminate the lifetime of your products by turning off the servers they require to function, and you are committing a very big crime to try to replicate their IP to keep your product functional.

Quote:
Originally Posted by umeng2002 View Post

I think we need to pass a law that explicitly states that you can't be charged with piracy unless you do it for commercial practices, and that if you own a product you have the right to tamper and modify it - even the software as you wish.

And the computer hacking laws from the 80s need to be changed so that some uppity prosecutor won't charge you with a federal crime for using your Mom's Netflix password.

In other words, we just need to repeal the DMCA in its entirety and let the system go back to the way it was before the massive lobby effort to put the onus on consumers to prove they didn't steal their digital content.

Got it.
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