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post #131 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by fragamemnon View Post

While you are absolutely correct, there is a bit more depth to the current situation. Let me expand a bit on the subject.

Remember that in current times many people have spent their young adult/adult lives (in education and specialization) preparing to work in [X field] by using a certain set of tools. Afterwards, they start working using those tools and thus bring food to their table.
Assuming the tools are programs and considering that the majority of such software is built for Microsoft's environment, you are more or less forced down this path unless you are willing to scratch everything and start anew.
There is often a free/open alternative, and even if it somehow covers 100% of the functionality needed, compatibility with the de-facto standard software in the business world is not guaranteed and nigh impossible.

Bottom line - it is still your choice and no one is forcing you, but is the choice you have to make actually fair?

I don't follow.

Code, basic code, is similar to almost any platform you are working on. yes there are differences, but overall you can transform code from one system to another if you are willing to do the work.
No, you don't need to scratch the whole toolset. If you learned to develop for platform X, you can manage if you learn the small bits and pieces you need to develop to platform Y.

Can adobe for example move to linux? Of course. Hell, they already have mac as well as windows sets, and mac is basically a linux system.
Will they do it? Chicken and egg scenario.
Same with a big amount of games. It all depends on whether they are willing to spend the time.

Regarding choice, yes and no. If you want to go main stream, you have to go main stream. You have to use steam as a platform, you have to use windows or one or two of the consoles if you go there, and you have to find that where is your target audience is. If has nothing to do about fairness. You can't force your market to one platform if your market doesn't want to move to it.

*snip*

Say you study some graphical design and spend lots of years learning Photoshop, or a CAD program. That software runs on Windows only, and back then you have no idea about what Windows 10 is about to become.
Now this happens, and you face the choice:
- eventually be forced to shift over to Windows 10 and sacrifice privacy along with introducing many other inconveniences, or
- give up on your knowledge, effectively devaluing the years you've spent learning it, and start learning another software anew.

I have a friend who is freelancing jobs like this on occasion, and let me tell you - he isn't the least bit happy with the choice he has to make.
This is not about being mainstream. This is about specializing in a life career and suddenly become obstructed by the immediate environment you work in - in this case, the OS.
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post #132 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

If you invent something, something no one else have, lets say a cure for every cancer, you can basically, as long as laws allow you, charge whatever the hell you want.
You invented a pill that makes a person immortal and want to change 100,000,000$ for it even if it cost you to make it 50 cents? Go right ahead. No one is stopping you.

What if instead of $1b they were asking for some of your rights? Or your children's? There's a difference from the government doing it and a private corporation. You can start with privacy and go further and further because people are stupid and think that if it isn't money or time it is free of charge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

This is why microsoft are fully entitled to collect whatever data they want on you. The only thing they need to do is be up-front with it. From there, you are free to choose if you will use it or not. Your choice, and no one is forcing you do do it.

It is well known that people are stupid. Look at the recent Brexit incident. So you have to protect them from themselves. It's ugly and people should know better but that's how things are these days.

Every country is entitled to ask any corporation to do as they say to operate in their country or face fines and ultimately a complete ban if they don't comply.
post #133 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by fragamemnon View Post

Say you study some graphical design and spend lots of years learning Photoshop, or a CAD program. That software runs on Windows only, and back then you have no idea about what Windows 10 is about to become.
Now this happens, and you face the choice:
- eventually be forced to shift over to Windows 10 and sacrifice privacy along with introducing many other inconveniences, or
- give up on your knowledge, effectively devaluing the years you've spent learning it, and start learning another software anew.

I have a friend who is freelancing jobs like this on occasion, and let me tell you - he isn't the least bit happy with the choice he has to make.
This is not about being mainstream. This is about specializing in a life career and suddenly become obstructed by the immediate environment you work in - in this case, the OS.

Funny thing is, that I have been learning (and working) in photoshop and 3d studio max.
I am able to apply the understanding of layers, adjustments, or 3d modelling, to maya, to gimp, to dxo, etc. Those programs are also in some way, when you learn them, teach you basic things, and since many of the programs are supporting the same layouts and understanding, moving from one platform to another isn't that painful as you make it sound.

What I learned, moving to gimp, has not been devalued at all, nor force to give up on anything.
If you understand the basic, you can apply that learning to other appliances. While the UI is different, the basic behind it stays the same.

Sorry, not convinced.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imouto View Post

What if instead of $1b they were asking for some of your rights? Or your children's? There's a difference from the government doing it and a private corporation. You can start with privacy and go further and further because people are stupid and think that if it isn't money or time it is free of charge.
It is well known that people are stupid. Look at the recent Brexit incident. So you have to protect them from themselves. It's ugly and people should know better but that's how things are these days.

Every country is entitled to ask any corporation to do as they say to operate in their country or face fines and ultimately a complete ban if they don't comply.

As long as it is clear, "be immortal and give up on your children", there is absolutely nothing wrong with it as long as it is legal.. When you buy insurance, when you apply to certain jobs, you are also agreeing to give up on your privacy.

The fact that people are stupid is true, but people for the most part have absolutely nothing to worry in the end of the day.
So MS knows what site you are on? Facebook knows what you are talking about? As long as they aren't doing it to extort you, it is not like they are taking your data, going over it on the toilet, and enjoying themselves right?
There isn't someone who go through your data 24/7 looking for dirt on you.

And yes, every country is entitles to ask for a corporation to work by their laws. But as long as you aren't doing something illegal, they can't ask you specific demands as long as those demands are not backed by laws and rules isn't it?
It will only cause more hard than good if they are going to force MS to fight on those things in courts.
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post #134 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jupitel View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero4549 View Post

I agree that capitalism is inherently flawed, and that our implementation is far from what we claim it to be. That however is not the point. Microsoft and other companies simply exist in the paradigm "we" created and enforce. The problems you have with their practices are really with our current market. If you want to change it, you need to change the cause, not the symptom. If you don't believe you can, or don't care to try to change the system, then complaining about companies using the system is a wasted effort.

I think you misunderstand me, I have zero problem with what Microsoft is doing. As I said, corporations are not good or bad, moral or immoral, they are amoral, they exist outside these concepts, they act to do one thing, make profit, ask any question with a Why. Why does corporation X do Y? The answer is always the same, profits.

My problem is with people who have abdicated their responsibility to keep an eye out. Corporations are like water, they expand and do what is allowed. To blame Microsoft is like blaming a dog for eating a stake you threw on the floor. If we allow them to do something, they will. If we allow them to have slaves, they will. Not because they are evil, or good, but because they it would increase their profits. Sounds far-fetched? Check out the nets across Apple buildings in China.

So when a company due to negligence or greed causes massive environmental damage or the death of employees they are neither immoral or bad, they are just amoral. When Intel paid off OEM's not to use AMD they weren't immoral, they were just... amoral. When BP cut costs and caused the worlds second greatest environmental disaster (nobody will ever be able to beat Fukushima) and created a wasteland in the Mexican Gulf they weren't doing anything immoral or illegal. Why on earth was Standard Oil punished for dealing with Nazi Germany? They weren't doing anything immoral or illegal.

 

Defoler and you are perfect for the revolving door of our fascist societies, justifying every criminal act sociopathic corporations commit.


Edited by Liranan - 8/12/16 at 5:14am
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post #135 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liranan View Post

So when a company due to negligence or greed causes massive environmental damage or the death of employees they are neither immoral or bad, they are just amoral. When Intel paid off OEM's not to use AMD they weren't immoral, they were just... amoral. When BP cut costs and caused the worlds second greatest environmental disaster (nobody will ever be able to beat Fukushima) and created a wasteland in the Mexican Gulf they weren't doing anything immoral or illegal. Why on earth was Standard Oil punished for dealing with Nazi Germany? They weren't doing anything immoral or illegal.

Defoler and you are perfect for the revolving door of our fascist societies, justifying every criminal act sociopathic corporations commit.

Their actions can be judged as evil or good but their intent is neither so it's kinda pointless. Is a computer good when it calculates a new more efficient route? Sure, I guess. There are a few companies who are still led by people who have personal intention, but as far as most international corporations there is none of that. Microsoft has no evil dude sitting on a revolving chair petting a cat.
post #136 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

I don't follow.

Code, basic code, is similar to almost any platform you are working on. yes there are differences, but overall you can transform code from one system to another if you are willing to do the work.
No, you don't need to scratch the whole toolset. If you learned to develop for platform X, you can manage if you learn the small bits and pieces you need to develop to platform Y.

Can adobe for example move to linux? Of course. Hell, they already have mac as well as windows sets, and mac is basically a linux system.
Will they do it? Chicken and egg scenario.
Same with a big amount of games. It all depends on whether they are willing to spend the time.

Regarding choice, yes and no. If you want to go main stream, you have to go main stream. You have to use steam as a platform, you have to use windows or one or two of the consoles if you go there, and you have to find that where is your target audience is. If has nothing to do about fairness. You can't force your market to one platform if your market doesn't want to move to it.
They are not breaking a single law as of right now. They are operating on the grey area where the law doesn't permit nothing, but just seems shabby at best. The law allows them to evade taxes by registering through other countries. If the law is amended, they will have to adjust, but it will not apply to anything before the law, so that law might as well be useless as long as they can keep doing it.
I have no idea what does that have to do with anything.

The entity of the company doesn't need doctors, police officers, hospitals etc. Those are tools for the employees who are local and pay their taxes. This doesn't come from the company tax.
Unless you want to turn all of those employees, who pay taxes, second class citizens?

And roads and buildings? They are paying their rent, they are also paying the road taxes which usually come through the fuel payments.

You are trying to twist it but as long as its legal, what you want that what they will do, are just science fiction.

And they helped write the laws? Who is to blame? The company who just want to maximise their profit, or the politician who took the money and helped to make that law?
That is just shabby, but not illegal unless you can prove they took bribes.

BTW, what do you think about the fact that one of the US ex presidents is getting a 200K$ for a 15-20 minutes speech, netting over 100M$ in 12 years just from speeches, all of those speeches of course are sponsored by this or that company. Are his words really worth 200K$ for 15 minutes of his time?
You can say that he is ripping what he planted.

This is an interesting fact, especially since his wife is currently running for presidency, and while she held a very high ranking government position, her husband raked almost 50M$ in speeches.

So just you understand who is actually at fault here, when you are pointing out fingers.
Business will do what business can. The ones who need to keep this in check, are not the businesses. The cat doesn't guard the cheese.
But if you allow the cat to hold a short leash on the rat, and it forces the rat to guard the cheese... well...

Also please note that this is happening all over. This is not just a US thing. Every countries politicians are being man-handled by a corporation at the end of some line.

Again I think people misunderstand me, I blame neither the corporation or the politicians, I blame the people, the are ultimately responsible. To blame Microsoft for anything is like blaming the dog for eating meat you throw on the ground. If you think for a second, that giant corporation do not constantly benefit from national resources such as policemen, soldiers, firefighters you must be high, they pay almost no taxes for those services like churches. Why? Because the wrote the laws that allow them to do so. I.E. GM/Exon.
post #137 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jupitel View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liranan View Post

So when a company due to negligence or greed causes massive environmental damage or the death of employees they are neither immoral or bad, they are just amoral. When Intel paid off OEM's not to use AMD they weren't immoral, they were just... amoral. When BP cut costs and caused the worlds second greatest environmental disaster (nobody will ever be able to beat Fukushima) and created a wasteland in the Mexican Gulf they weren't doing anything immoral or illegal. Why on earth was Standard Oil punished for dealing with Nazi Germany? They weren't doing anything immoral or illegal.

Defoler and you are perfect for the revolving door of our fascist societies, justifying every criminal act sociopathic corporations commit.

Their actions can be judged as evil or good but their intent is neither so it's kinda pointless. Is a computer good when it calculates a new more efficient route? Sure, I guess. There are a few companies who are still led by people who have personal intention, but as far as most international corporations there is none of that. Microsoft has no evil dude sitting on a revolving chair petting a cat.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jupitel View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

I don't follow.

Code, basic code, is similar to almost any platform you are working on. yes there are differences, but overall you can transform code from one system to another if you are willing to do the work.
No, you don't need to scratch the whole toolset. If you learned to develop for platform X, you can manage if you learn the small bits and pieces you need to develop to platform Y.

Can adobe for example move to linux? Of course. Hell, they already have mac as well as windows sets, and mac is basically a linux system.
Will they do it? Chicken and egg scenario.
Same with a big amount of games. It all depends on whether they are willing to spend the time.

Regarding choice, yes and no. If you want to go main stream, you have to go main stream. You have to use steam as a platform, you have to use windows or one or two of the consoles if you go there, and you have to find that where is your target audience is. If has nothing to do about fairness. You can't force your market to one platform if your market doesn't want to move to it.
They are not breaking a single law as of right now. They are operating on the grey area where the law doesn't permit nothing, but just seems shabby at best. The law allows them to evade taxes by registering through other countries. If the law is amended, they will have to adjust, but it will not apply to anything before the law, so that law might as well be useless as long as they can keep doing it.
I have no idea what does that have to do with anything.

The entity of the company doesn't need doctors, police officers, hospitals etc. Those are tools for the employees who are local and pay their taxes. This doesn't come from the company tax.
Unless you want to turn all of those employees, who pay taxes, second class citizens?

And roads and buildings? They are paying their rent, they are also paying the road taxes which usually come through the fuel payments.

You are trying to twist it but as long as its legal, what you want that what they will do, are just science fiction.

And they helped write the laws? Who is to blame? The company who just want to maximise their profit, or the politician who took the money and helped to make that law?
That is just shabby, but not illegal unless you can prove they took bribes.

BTW, what do you think about the fact that one of the US ex presidents is getting a 200K$ for a 15-20 minutes speech, netting over 100M$ in 12 years just from speeches, all of those speeches of course are sponsored by this or that company. Are his words really worth 200K$ for 15 minutes of his time?
You can say that he is ripping what he planted.

This is an interesting fact, especially since his wife is currently running for presidency, and while she held a very high ranking government position, her husband raked almost 50M$ in speeches.

So just you understand who is actually at fault here, when you are pointing out fingers.
Business will do what business can. The ones who need to keep this in check, are not the businesses. The cat doesn't guard the cheese.
But if you allow the cat to hold a short leash on the rat, and it forces the rat to guard the cheese... well...

Also please note that this is happening all over. This is not just a US thing. Every countries politicians are being man-handled by a corporation at the end of some line.

Again I think people misunderstand me, I blame neither the corporation or the politicians, I blame the people, the are ultimately responsible. To blame Microsoft for anything is like blaming the dog for eating meat you throw on the ground. If you think for a second, that giant corporation do not constantly benefit from national resources such as policemen, soldiers, firefighters you must be high, they pay almost no taxes for those services like churches. Why? Because the wrote the laws that allow them to do so. I.E. GM/Exon.

What nonsense you spew. I feel I'm being dragged down to your level and seriously beaten to pulp by the vast experience you have.

 

This discussion is at an end simply because you neither understand morality nor law, making me wonder whether you have a reason to vehemently defend fascism or whether it's just your state of mind.

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post #138 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jupitel View Post

Their actions can be judged as evil or good but their intent is neither so it's kinda pointless. Is a computer good when it calculates a new more efficient route? Sure, I guess. There are a few companies who are still led by people who have personal intention, but as far as most international corporations there is none of that. Microsoft has no evil dude sitting on a revolving chair petting a cat.

You are arguing with a guy who claim a corporation is acting like a fascist government with even understand what that means.

Kinda redundant.
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post #139 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jupitel View Post

Their actions can be judged as evil or good but their intent is neither so it's kinda pointless. Is a computer good when it calculates a new more efficient route? Sure, I guess. There are a few companies who are still led by people who have personal intention, but as far as most international corporations there is none of that. Microsoft has no evil dude sitting on a revolving chair petting a cat.

You are arguing with a guy who claim a corporation is acting like a fascist government with even understand what that means.

Kinda redundant.

The Defoler does it again, he boldy goes to levels noone else dares to go.

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post #140 of 144
Being Italian myself I have a pretty good idea what a fascist government does and I'd appreciated if you'd refrain from using such words. When it comes to these kind of discussions there are always people that use big words without really understanding what they mean. And of course theres the guy that bring in the nazis into the discussion, predictable.

To answer your question, I already stated that some companies, especially in the past, were often led by one person or family, in those case its not the corporations that do "bad" or "evil" but those that lead them. This doesn't apply in most modern cases, a decision to recall a product for example is always calculated by looking at the cost of a recall vs cost of lawsuits because of the defective product. You could argue that its evil for a corporation to kill people with bad products (I.E. GM) but there is no intent apart from making money, if the CEO or an employee refuses they are fired and replaced.

At the end of the day is up to the people to set boundaries for companies, but to then blame them for doing what we created them to do is ridiculous. Oh my god Microsoft does X/Y, yeah do you know why? Because its profitable and they can do it. As simple as that, so the blames goes on the people that need to learn to take personal responsibility instead of always whining like little girls pointing the finger at the big bad corporations.

And if you still don't get it, I'm arguing for people to rise and start to watch over these giant corporations, I'm not defending them. If you think I ever "justified" the actions of a corporation then you misunderstood everything that I said clearly.
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