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[Twitter] Jen-Hsun introduces the new NVIDIA TITAN X - Page 190  

post #1891 of 3587
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlhil2 View Post

Just did some deep thinking,(ouch), and I have decided to buy the 1080Classified ot the MSI Seahawk EK edition. why? since nVIDIA is claiming that this gpu isn't "aimed.." at gamers, you KNOW that their WILL be a GTX 102 chip released, sooner or later....hopefully, a grand or less..

you very chip. you buy nao! twelve hunded good price fo you.
post #1892 of 3587
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnek View Post

What in the hell? Clock for clock Titan X could be theoretically up to 9% faster, but in actuality you never see that much gain, typically 5-7% at best.

Here's a Fire Strike run with a Titan X @ 1500/8200 vs my 980 Ti @ 1500/8000

http://www.3dmark.com/compare/fs/5160196/fs/8618775#

Even with a +200 advantage on memory the Titan X only has a 4.5% higher graphics score. Not sure where you got 1550 MHz Titan X = 1800 MHz 980 Ti from.
Because I've ran at the numbers I posted and still Titan X is still top scoring card. I'm not typical. Hit the little robot under my avatar. As carhil said "Once TXP hit, in about a months time, there will be no 1080s in the HOF top 100......I am talking single gpu.."
    
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post #1893 of 3587
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnek View Post

Well, if GPUs also only improved 5-10% per year, then they'd have a much longer shelf life.

There was clearly sufficient demand for a $999 card that nVidia kept selling it and people kept buying it.

Unfortunately, nVidia has gotten to the point where nothing short of a Bulldozer style disaster would have any impact whatsoever. Remember Bumpgate from 8-9 years ago? That was a much, much worse issue than the 970 vram fiasco, and nVidia barely had 50% of the market back then, and still it had minimal impact on nVidia.

The point about the 1060 3GB is that we would never know if it was even a thing to begin with. Them not telling us about it =/= they designed it, then recanted due to the backlash. I mean really this is nVidia we're talking about here. They tried to sell Titan Z for $3K, and when that failed, they quietly slashed prices by 50% 6 months later.

I'm not defending anybody, simply being realistic about the situation. I mean I get it, we as consumers should boycott the card and tell JHH to go sniff a dog's ass, but that's simply too idealistic for more reasons than one. I mean, half the thread is people trying to reason with others on why they should hold off on buying such a card, and you can see how that all went.

I'm not arguing that there was not a relative demand for the video card, but that the supply made it unjustifiable at that price. Unless one should believe JHH's words when he says "there will only be a few made" - same thing they say in those silly as seen on TV adverts. On a 28nm mature process, I would be hard pressed to believe that the quantity justified the price of 999. As a consumer, we could have demanded that we receive more. Even from the end user experience, it was a so-so product. It ran warm, it was overclocking limited (compared to the 980 ti), and was touted as the premium product? The GTX 580 was a better product at a better price. We can demand that. They are telling us "You've got to pay to play".. how does that benefit anyone but them, and how is repeating it of benefit?

Had reviewers and owners complained instead of justified the purchase to themselves and their peers, they would have done a better job on the price of the TXP. Even now, people somehow feel as though they are being attacked for buying the product of questionable the value, and their reason for the purchasing of the card. If any, I am fighting for them by telling NV that it was not that great, because the other owners themselves won't do it for themselves.

How can you not feel bad about losing ~500 dollars in a year on a video card, only to have it be surpassed next year at a 700 dollar premium again? Why are we fighting amongst ourselves about value when we should blame NV?

I disagree, about the impact of bumpgate being minor. Do you realize how much it costs to spin things after losing 200 million as a small company, like NV after bumpgate? That is not minor. It's consumers and reviewers at work. Look at the products they released afterward, and how much of a rough patch it was for the next two GPU generations.

We can do that again, but we actively need to be holding NV to greater standards by scrutinizing their methods.

Your point about the GTX 1060 is the same as mine. It is NV we are talking about here, a corporation, that will only give minimal benefits unless pushed. Are we to believe they were going to give us 3GB out of good graces? Let's say we agree.

I would hate to say it, but I think you are being cynical, rather than realistic. I am not an optimist, but we can not afford to give up ground by repeating JHH's words about how being in a duopoly justifies prices. As I have said, it is doing their PR work for them, and it is defending their position without any foreseeable benefit to the consumer.
Edited by junkman - 7/27/16 at 5:16pm
post #1894 of 3587
Quote:
Originally Posted by i7monkey View Post

you very chip. you buy nao! twelve hunded good price fo you.
Lol, you are a funny dude... smile.gif
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post #1895 of 3587
Quote:
Originally Posted by i7monkey View Post

you very chip. you buy nao! twelve hunded good price fo you.

lachen.gif

1700USD for a "high end" CPU, 1200USD for a "high end" GPU, 600USD for a "high end" motherboard. Sacrifice 10 or 20% performance and buy the hardware just below this, so you can buy a monitor, a case, a mouse, a keyboard, a SSD and a box of candy.
Edited by TUFinside - 7/27/16 at 4:55pm
post #1896 of 3587
Quote:
Originally Posted by zGunBLADEz View Post

im calling it this card Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
cant
run witcher 3 full @60fps on 4k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAeUvZ5FcKU

Not with 20-30% increase over 1080....

Gains are even worst on 4k

Anyone who says 20% over 1080 has NO clue what they are talking about. This will be ~35% over 1080 at stock pretty much guaranteed, and just like the 980 TI will get a MUCH larger boost from overclocking than the cut-down card gets. Remember when the TITAN X maxwell card came out? Even though the Maxwell TITAN X only started at 1000mhz base clock it could go all the way to 1,500mhz in many cases; nearly matching the average ~1,550mhz that the 980 usually reaches via overclocking. And it's basic math that the lower your STARTING clock speed the bigger the percentage you gain from each mhz you can overclock it. (i.e. going from 1000mhz to 1500mhz is a massive 50% boost! But going from 1,600mhz to 2,100mhz like the 1080 does is only 31% despite still being a 500mhz increase. This means that you are gonna see damn close to TWICE the overclocking benefit on this TITAN X than on the 1080. And the 1080 already got ~8-9fps increase even at 4K when overclocked to ~2,050 - 2,100mhz or so; so you're easily looking at ~14-16fps increase when overclocking this TITAN)

So if we take say 35% over 1080 which is a fair real world 4K increase especially due to the much larger 480 GB/s bandwidth on the 384 bit bus the TITAN has which is more beneficial at the larger resolution like 4K; and then add in an overclock from 1,400mhz where it starts to 1,900mhz where Nvidia has claimed it can hit; we are looking at a 36% higher clock speed, meaning likely around 28-30% performance gain.

That puts it at roughly 65% faster than 1080; and remember Tech of Tomorrow did those Witcher 3 tests at stock speeds, no overclock. So if we take the ~40fps average the 1080 got and factor in the 65% increase of an overclocked TITAN X we get 40 * 1.65 = 66fps. So no, it CAN do >60fps at 4K with all settings maxed when you overclock it. Even non overclocked you're looking at roughly 54fps average even with max hairworks etc..etc.. and Witcher 3 is basically the most graphically demanding game out there for GPUs so anything else will perform even better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slomo4shO View Post

When did I claim that it was GP100? P6000 is full GP102 and Titan XP is cut down GP102. GP102 is the current flagship product for the consumer lineup...


You specifically said that it was "like a GTX 570" with the full 3,840 card being like a 580. You were acting like it was a drastically cut down chip or something. I'm simply pointing out that even the full GP100 only uses 3584 cuda cores due to bad yields, so that's not a fair comparison to make. Especially with how we've already seen with like the 980 TI vs Maxwell TITAN X that a 256 core difference makes next to NO difference really; maybe a couple percent at most. And with a larger core count of 3584 vs 3840 instead of 2816 vs 3072 you see even LESS percent difference between the two than we did between the 980 TI and Maxwell TITAN X.

Plus the die sizes make the "570 vs 580" comparison even more wrong. The 570 and 580 didn't even use a full 600mm2 die either! They used a 520mm2 die size! The GTX 480 used a 529mm2 die and the tweaked for better heat/power consumption 580 that was more of an "efficiency enhanced 480" used a slightly shrunk down 520mm2 die size.

Hell, lets go even FARTHER back! Even the Nvidia 9800 GTX flagship only had a 324mm2 die size! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GeForce_9_series

This is why i'm saying that people complaining about the 478mm2 die size of the GP102 being "a ripoff cut-down chip" and saying that "in the past we would've gotten an x70 card with that kinda die size with the x80 being even bigger!" but that's simply not the case as even going back 10 years Nvidia NEVER made a 600mm2 die. The closest they've ever gotten in the past 10 years was the GTX 480 with 529mm2, which is still MUCH closer to the 478mm2 size of GP102 TITAN X than it is to the 601mm2 size of GP200/GK210 etc.. on the 780 TI and 980 TI. People are just trying to find any excuse to complain about a card they can't afford. (not talking about you in this last part for the record. Talking about others who commented back pages back near where you commented)
 
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post #1897 of 3587
Quote:
Originally Posted by junkman View Post

I'm not arguing that there was not a relative demand for the video card, but that the supply made it unjustifiable at that price. Unless one should believe JHH's words when he says "there will only be a few made" - same thing they say in those silly as seen on TV adverts. On a 28nm mature process, I would be hard pressed to believe that the quantity justified the price of 999. As a consumer, we could have demanded that we receive more. Even from the end user experience, it was a so-so product. It ran warm, it was overclocking limited, and was touted as the premium product? The GTX 580 was a better product at a better price. We can demand that. They are telling us "You've got to pay to play".. how does that benefit anyone but them, and how is repeating it of benefit?

Had reviewers and owners complained instead of justified the purchase to themselves and their peers, they would have done a better job on the price of the TXP. Even now, people somehow feel as though they are being attacked for buying the product of questionable the value, and their reason for the purchasing of the card. If any, I am fighting for them by telling NV that it was not that great, because the other owners themselves won't do it for themselves.

How can you not feel bad about losing ~500 dollars in a year on a video card, only to have it be surpassed next year at a 700 dollar premium again? Why are we fighting amongst ourselves about value when we should blame NV?

As I pointed out earlier, it's because those with the disposable income to spare simply don't care. And they'll continue to not care for as long as nVidia can provide them with the latest and greatest.
Quote:
I disagree, about the impact of bumpgate being minor. Do you realize how much it costs to spin things after losing 200 million as a small company, like NV after bumpgate? That is not minor. It's consumers and reviewers at work. Look at the products they released afterward, and how much of a rough patch it was for the next two GPU generations.

We can do that again, but we actively need to be holding NV to greater standards by scrutinizing their methods.

The impact of Bumpgate to nVidia's reputation and market share was relatively minor:



Yes nVidia lost 13% market share between Q1 and Q3 of 2009. But how much of that was due to the success of HD 4000 and 5000 series GPUs, 4870 and 5870/5850 in particular?
Quote:
Your point about the GTX 1060 is the same as mine. It is NV we are talking about here, a corporation, that will only give minimal benefits unless pushed. Are we to believe they were going to give us 3GB out of good graces? Let's say we agree.

I would hate to say it, but I think you are being cynical, rather than realistic. I am not an optimist, but we can not afford to give up ground by repeating JHH's words about how being in a duopoly justifies prices. As I have said, it is doing their PR work for them, and it is defending their position without any foreseeable benefit to the consumer.

So, what is it that you propose we do? Start a petition, take to the streets? If it's as simple as not buying the card, well then you can relax, because I have no plans of buying one. If it's about "speaking up" and not "being a silent victim", well half the thread is about the price, and plenty of people have spoke their mind already.

But I really need to get one thing clear: I am NOT and have NOT been defending the price hikes. But I do want to ask you, what is your opinion on AMD pricing 7970 @ $550, almost a 50% increase from 6970's $370? Should we too have started a riot about that?
post #1898 of 3587
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkIdeals View Post

Anyone who says 20% over 1080 has NO clue what they are talking about. This will be ~35% over 1080 at stock pretty much guaranteed, and just like the 980 TI will get a MUCH larger boost from overclocking than the cut-down card gets. Remember when the TITAN X maxwell card came out? Even though the Maxwell TITAN X only started at 1000mhz base clock it could go all the way to 1,500mhz in many cases; nearly matching the average ~1,550mhz that the 980 usually reaches via overclocking. And it's basic math that the lower your STARTING clock speed the bigger the percentage you gain from each mhz you can overclock it. (i.e. going from 1000mhz to 1500mhz is a massive 50% boost! But going from 1,600mhz to 2,100mhz like the 1080 does is only 31% despite still being a 500mhz increase. This means that you are gonna see damn close to TWICE the overclocking benefit on this TITAN X than on the 1080. And the 1080 already got ~8-9fps increase even at 4K when overclocked to ~2,050 - 2,100mhz or so; so you're easily looking at ~14-16fps increase when overclocking this TITAN)

So if we take say 35% over 1080 which is a fair real world 4K increase especially due to the much larger 480 GB/s bandwidth on the 384 bit bus the TITAN has which is more beneficial at the larger resolution like 4K; and then add in an overclock from 1,400mhz where it starts to 1,900mhz where Nvidia has claimed it can hit; we are looking at a 36% higher clock speed, meaning likely around 28-30% performance gain.

That puts it at roughly 65% faster than 1080; and remember Tech of Tomorrow did those Witcher 3 tests at stock speeds, no overclock. So if we take the ~40fps average the 1080 got and factor in the 65% increase of an overclocked TITAN X we get 40 * 1.65 = 66fps. So no, it CAN do >60fps at 4K with all settings maxed when you overclock it. Even non overclocked you're looking at roughly 54fps average even with max hairworks etc..etc.. and Witcher 3 is basically the most graphically demanding game out there for GPUs so anything else will perform even better.

Not this again. See below:
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnek View Post

Titan X = 1.5x 980 in terms of chip spec, but in actual games only ended up being 25-35% faster. And this with only a 6.7% boost deficit relative to the 980 on average. (1119 MHz vs 1194 across 9 games) If you look through that Anandtech review, in the two games with the smallest boost clock difference (Crysis 3 and GRID Autosport), Titan X ends up being only ~35% faster even at 4K.

Titan XP = 1.4x 1080 in terms of chip spec (well shader count really since we know nothing about number of TMUs and ROPs), but the official listed boost clock at 1513 MHz is already 12.7% slower than 1080's official boost of 1733 MHz. So there's just no way stock vs stock the Titan XP will end up being 40% faster. As I've said previously, stock vs stock I expect Titan XP to be ~25% faster.
post #1899 of 3587
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkIdeals View Post


This is why i'm saying that people complaining about the 478mm2 die size of the GP102 being "a ripoff cut-down chip" and saying that "in the past we would've gotten an x70 card with that kinda die size with the x80 being even bigger!" but that's simply not the case as even going back 10 years Nvidia NEVER made a 600mm2 die. The closest they've ever gotten in the past 10 years was the GTX 480 with 529mm2, which is still MUCH closer to the 478mm2 size of GP102 TITAN X than it is to the 601mm2 size of GP200/GK210 etc.. on the 780 TI and 980 TI. People are just trying to find any excuse to complain about a card they can't afford. (not talking about you in this last part for the record. Talking about others who commented back pages back near where you commented)

People are allowed to complain about anything they want to complain about. At $1200, you can should be able to complain about the color if you want to.

If we were concerned about diminishing returns, we'd get a 1080 Ti instead of the Titan XP anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnek View Post

As I pointed out earlier, it's because those with the disposable income to spare simply don't care. And they'll continue to not care for as long as nVidia can provide them with the latest and greatest.
The impact of Bumpgate to nVidia's reputation and market share was relatively minor:

Yes nVidia lost 13% market share between Q1 and Q3 of 2009. But how much of that was due to the success of HD 4000 and 5000 series GPUs, 4870 and 5870/5850 in particular?
So, what is it that you propose we do? Start a petition, take to the streets? If it's as simple as not buying the card, well then you can relax, because I have no plans of buying one. If it's about "speaking up" and not "being a silent victim", well half the thread is about the price, and plenty of people have spoke their mind already.

But I really need to get one thing clear: I am NOT and have NOT been defending the price hikes. But I do want to ask you, what is your opinion on AMD pricing 7970 @ $550, almost a 50% increase from 6970's $370? Should we too have started a riot about that?

Those people are the minority, we can still complain about the price. What harm does it do, like you said, if people will buy it anyway?

NV's revenue from 2007-2009:

April 30, 2009 664.23M
Jan. 31, 2009 481.14M
Oct. 31, 2008 897.66M
July 31, 2008 892.68M
April 30, 2008 1.153B
Jan. 31, 2008 1.203B
Oct. 31, 2007 1.116B

To top that off, as a solely GPU company, their market share decreased %13, and were required to pay $200M in damages.. that is not minor, especially for a small company. Sure causality matters, but are we to say it was just a minor infraction and small consequences on their part? Most definitely not.

Your tone suggests you believe that we can't do anything about these problems, as if some sort of AMD revolution is the only play left. You simply voice your concerns as a consumer loudly, clearly, and firmly. If others echo those same concerns, that is better than admitting you can do nothing and echoing JHH's love for our wallets by telling us what he price he will set.

Simply chalking price hikes up to a duopoly and lack of competition is giving in to the marketing and PR strategy they are campaigning, tell us who it benefits?

Unfair on my part.
Edited by junkman - 7/27/16 at 6:05pm
post #1900 of 3587
Clock for clock, this gpu is going to put a whooping on the 1080, I mean, it should easily hit 2000+. it should OC just as well as the 1080/1070/1060, only, because of it's lower stock clocks, people will be fooled into thinking that it is the better OC'er......
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The Black Cube
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CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
7960x ASUS ROG RAMPAGE VI APEX  nVIDIA GTX Titan XP  Gskill TridentZ 3200 cas 14 4x8 GB 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
WD Mushkin Chronos DX 120gb Mushkin Chronos DX 60GB Samsung 840 Pro 256GB 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
Intel 750 Series 400GB  intel 730 480GB Intel Optane 900p Samsung DVDWBD SH-B083L 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
XSPC RayStorm w/Alphacool NexXxoS Monsta 420mm... Windows 10 Pro Sammy U28D590D Monitor Logitech G710 
PowerCaseMouseAudio
Seasonic SS-1250XM X-Series ATX PC Power Supply Corsair 900D Logitech G502 Aune S16 Hifi DIY 32bit / 384khz Dsd128 Fifo Fu... 
AudioAudioAudioAudio
Sennheiser HD 600 JVC HA-SZ2000  Pioneer Pro DJ DDJ-SB2 DJ Controller MPD18 
AudioAudioAudioAudio
xDuoo XD-05 Jotunheim AKG Q's SoundMAGIC HP200  
AudioOtherOther
SoundMAGIC HP150  CyberPower CP1500PFCLCD PFC Sinewave UPS 1500VA... Logitech G13 
CPURAMHard DriveOS
Intel Core i7-5557U Kingston HyperX Impact Black 16GB Kit (2x8GB) 1... Samsung 840 Pro 256GB Windows 10 Pro/Remix OS w/Nova Launcher Dual Boot 
Monitor
GeChic 1502i 15.6" 1080p IPS Portable Touchscre... 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
4790K@4.6@1.200v Asus Z97M-PLUS  EVGA GTX 750ti Corsair Vengence 1600 LP 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Samsung 840 Pro Mushkin  XSPC Photon 170 Glass Reservoir / D5 Pump Combo  Windows 8.1 Pro 
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Samsung U28D590D 4K EVGA G2 850W Fractal Design Node 804 
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Hardware News › [Twitter] Jen-Hsun introduces the new NVIDIA TITAN X