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post #41 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by the9quad View Post

Obviously everyone who thinks tlou is a great story driven game is wrong because you the "hardcore" gamer with all knowledge objectively said so?

There is just no getting through to you. You never even understood what I was trying to get across. You've already agreed on the main point I was making.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by boredgunner View Post

Don't get me wrong, I'm not only trying to say "The Last of Us is bad" because that is indeed just one opinion. I'm simply pointing out the fact that it was designed to emulate movies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by the9quad View Post

Secondly does Ubisoft adding more question marks to discover make there games better than those who less question marks to discover?

What does this even mean, and what is it referring to?
 
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post #42 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by boredgunner View Post

There is just no getting through to you. You never even understood what I was trying to get across. You've already agreed on the main point I was making.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
What does this even mean, and what is it referring to?

If I replay a game for a different ending it is essentially more content. Question marks in Ubi games are also more content. Neither has bearing on the quality of the content. just because something gives you a choice does not make it a better story, it's just more story that may or may not be good. Hence all the how do I get the "good" ending posts in rpg threads.

TLOU is a good story driven game that can be a "hardcore" experience. The narrative is enough to tell a good story. Character growth makes you empathize with them. The acting is good. The production is good. It doesn't have any choice decisions though and it is on a console, so it is bad? Sorry not seeing it. All story driven games don't have to fit the same mold to be good. Dramas are not comedies. Action movies are not tear jerkers. You like a different type of game, but that doesn't make what other people like bad. It doesn't make their choice of game less sophisticated or less "hardcore". You like strawberries, they like bananas.

Naughty dog games emulate movies. Telltale games emulate choose your own adventure books. RPGs emulate tabletop games. They are all viable, and depending on the individual, equally "good" ways to make a game, and/or tell a story.
Edited by the9quad - 7/31/16 at 4:58pm
post #43 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by the9quad View Post

If I replay a game for a different ending it is essentially more content. Question marks in Ubi games are also more content. Neither has bearing on the quality of the content. just because something gives you a choice does not make it a better story, it's just more story that may or may not be good. Hence all the how do I get the "good" ending posts in rpg threads.

All of this I covered already.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by boredgunner View Post

I never said interactive narrative = quality narrative. It's good that you spelled it out I guess, since I have seen a few people think that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by boredgunner View Post

Interactive storytelling is just one example of taking advantage of the gaming medium. There are other methods as well, other ways of using gameplay, visuals/art design, and even other methods of "interaction" (as in, not just blatant choices like a Telltale game) to bolster storytelling and to distinguish video game storytelling. The problem with Naughty Dog games and others is that they don't attempt any such methods.
Quote:
Originally Posted by the9quad View Post

It doesn't have any choice decisions though and it is on a console, so it is bad? Sorry not seeing it.

Are you doing this on purpose?
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by boredgunner View Post

Interactive storytelling is just one example of taking advantage of the gaming medium. There are other methods as well, other ways of using gameplay, visuals/art design, and even other methods of "interaction" (as in, not just blatant choices like a Telltale game) to bolster storytelling and to distinguish video game storytelling. The problem with Naughty Dog games and others is that they don't attempt any such methods.

Or perhaps I need to spell that out even more. Yes, the entire story is devoid of player interaction and choice, but no that doesn't mean it's bad. What's bad is that it tries to be a movie instead of a game. There are other ways to take advantage of the video game medium regarding storytelling, these ways aren't set in stone as its a creative thing. But Naughty Dog does not even try, they just try to be a movie which is stupid because they aren't movies and they'll never be able to match a good movie. Get the argument now? It's like Naughty Dog has identity crisis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by the9quad View Post

TLOU is a good story driven game that can be a "hardcore" experience. The narrative is enough to tell a good story. Character growth makes you empathize with them. The acting is good. The production is good. All story driven games don't have to fit the same mold to be good. Dramas are not comedies. Action movies are not tear jerkers.

I consider its gameplay mechanics to be too simplified, lacking too much in depth, to be hardcore. Everything has a single functionality in The Last of Us, whether it's shooting or stealth; there is only one way to do each, there is a single best way to play the game. It hardly has any survival mechanics despite it focusing on survival.

"Production is good" - what does this mean?

Anyway I see some of the patterns with your posts continue, so it's about time I address this. You have it in reverse. Just because you like The Last of Us doesn't mean it is hardcore, and just because a game isn't hardcore (The Last of Us most certainly is not, neither are Telltale games) doesn't mean it's bad. You're afraid to accept the idea that you like a game that isn't hardcore. I like plenty of games that aren't hardcore games. "Hardcore" games are not AAA console exclusives, that's a contradiction. Consoles are the casual gaming platform, Naughty Dog games target all age ranges. But that's not really important for this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by the9quad View Post

You like a different type of game, but that doesn't make what other people like bad. It doesn't make their choice of game less sophisticated or less "hardcore". You like strawberries, they like bananas.

lol. Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by boredgunner View Post

Don't get me wrong, I'm not only trying to say "The Last of Us is bad" because that is indeed just one opinion. I'm simply pointing out the fact that it was designed to emulate movies.

My initial posts weren't just to announce my disapproval of the game, they were to make sure it's recognized for what it is (as you've already done), to bring up a different perspective, and to introduce alternative game design concepts that actually take advantage of the medium.

Other things you need to realize are:

  • Hardcore =/= good.
  • Not hardcore =/= bad.
  • You like The Last of Us, that doesn't make it hardcore or sophisticated. And not being either of those things doesn't mean a game is automatically bad.
  • Hardcore single player games are niche, as its a small audience. The Last of Us is not niche.

The content of a game is obviously what determines sophistication. The gameplay of TLOU is undoubtedly more simple than it is sophisticated, but as for the topic of this thread, I would never say it has sophisticated writing as there isn't much in the way of style, nor character depth, nor thematic elements. But judging from the games listed in the OP, this obviously doesn't matter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by the9quad View Post

Naughty dog games emulate movies. Telltale games emulate choose your own adventure books. RPGs emulate tabletop games. They are all viable, and depending on the individual, equally "good" ways to make a game, and/or tell a story.

You are oversimplifying now. Video game RPGs have changed a lot over the years. Any RPG that isn't isometric obviously isn't emulating a tabletop game anymore. BioWare's 21st century RPGs, especially if you exclude Baldur's Gate II and Neverwinter Nights, have all abandoned most tabletop aspects. Mass Effect obviously has next to nothing in common with a pen and paper game; it took very little from them, and is also cinematic thus has taken from movies. JRPGs? I don't think they have anything to do with tabletop games.

It is viable to take from these other mediums (movies, pen and paper RPGs, choose your own adventure books) and make them your own within the video game realm. Just blatantly copying any of these other mediums is not innovative video game development. A studio is not doing anything to advance video games if they're just directly copying another medium without shaping it to the video game medium and taking advantage of it.

At the end of the day there are a million different ways for a game to approach storytelling. I feel not enough gamers have played games that don't simply try to copy another medium.
Edited by boredgunner - 7/31/16 at 5:30pm
 
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post #44 of 62
Another vote for Alan Wake. thumb.gif
post #45 of 62
Mass Effect Trilogy (and do yourself a favor, include every DLC)
Dragon Age: Origins
Deus Ex: Human Revolution
Assassin's Creed II/Brotherhood/Revelations
Life Is Strange
Telltale's The Walking Dead
The Wolf Among Us
Pokemon Mystery Dungeon series (no one knows these have great stories lol)
post #46 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightAntilli View Post

Mass Effect Trilogy (and do yourself a favor, include every DLC)

I second this. Not only are the story DLCs amazing in their own right (with ME3's Citadel DLC showcasing a comedic side of BioWare that had never been seen previously, reminds me of Tales of the Borderlands humor somewhat) but Leviathan DLC is needed in order for ME3's ending to be explained properly.
 
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post #47 of 62
Dark souls isn't hardcore cuz all you do is stab things and roll(plus it was initially a console exclusive). Bloodborne is a console exclusive it isn't hardcore, plus it sold really well so it isn't niche.

RPGs aren't hardcore because all you do is quests and make choices.

Arma isn't hardcore cuz all you do is shoot stuff with guns and vehicles.

ME games are cover based shooters, with dialogue trees.

You don't like cinematic games, that doesn't mean they aren't really good games. We get it. The key words being you don't like.

TLOU on grounded is niche btw, not too many people play it that way.
Edited by the9quad - 8/2/16 at 4:11am
post #48 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by the9quad View Post

Dark souls isn't hardcore cuz all you do is stab things and roll(plus it was initially a console exclusive). Bloodborne is a console exclusive it isn't hardcore, plus it sold really well so it isn't niche.

RPGs aren't hardcore because all you do is quests and make choices.

Arma isn't hardcore cuz all you do is shoot stuff with guns and vehicles.

ME games are cover based shooters, with dialogue trees.

You don't like cinematic games, that doesn't mean they aren't really good games. We get it. The key words being you don't like.

TLOU on grounded is niche btw, not too many people play it that way.

He is a person that loves Tarkovsky's Stalker... there is no higher tier of cinematography than that even in Cinema, let alone gaming tongue.gif!

The problem is that TLOU is not exactly playing to the strengths of the medium despite its cinematography. Which is NOT a problem usually, to gaming (TNO alone is proof).

It is a pretty good game, just not something id... champion. Witcher 3 itself is different as it apes literature and thematic content from its source material - remediation like Metro (but in a different structure).
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post #49 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by the9quad View Post

Dark souls isn't hardcore cuz all you do is stab things and roll(plus it was initially a console exclusive). Bloodborne is a console exclusive it isn't hardcore, plus it sold really well so it isn't niche.

RPGs aren't hardcore because all you do is quests and make choices.

Arma isn't hardcore cuz all you do is shoot stuff with guns and vehicles.

ME games are cover based shooters, with dialogue trees.

You don't like cinematic games, that doesn't mean they aren't really good games. We get it. The key words being you don't like.

TLOU on grounded is niche btw, not too many people play it that way.

He is a person that loves Tarkovsky's Stalker... there is no higher tier of cinematography than that even in Cinema, let alone gaming tongue.gif!

The problem is that TLOU is not exactly playing to the strengths of the medium despite its cinematography. Which is NOT a problem usually, to gaming (TNO alone is proof).

It is a pretty good game, just not something id... champion. Witcher 3 itself is different as it apes literature and thematic content from its source material - remediation like Metro (but in a different structure).
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post #50 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by the9quad View Post

Dark souls isn't hardcore cuz all you do is stab things and roll(plus it was initially a console exclusive). Bloodborne is a console exclusive it isn't hardcore, plus it sold really well so it isn't niche.

RPGs aren't hardcore because all you do is quests and make choices.

Arma isn't hardcore cuz all you do is shoot stuff with guns and vehicles.

ME games are cover based shooters, with dialogue trees.

You don't like cinematic games, that doesn't mean they aren't really good games. We get it. The key words being you don't like.

TLOU on grounded is niche btw, not too many people play it that way.

Not many people play TLOU's hardest difficulty, but the game is not niche. Claiming otherwise just shows you don't know what niche means.

Ignoring the senseless sarcasm of your post, you're still just going in circles demonstrating your inability to understand and effectively debate my points (I like several games that are cinematic), and your inability to understand the types of games you're playing without me spelling it out for you (specifically you trying to deny that Mass Effect games are RPGs now, and you continuously painting the vast RPG genre with a single brush). So no, you (not we) don't get anything.
 
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